WI the Germans get the a-bomb

Kongzilla

Banned
If the Germans had nuclear weapons why would they use it on London. I would assume whoever is shooting it knows about how big the explosion is. They would use it on the Soviets first. And the WAllies aren't going to start dropping Biological and Chemical weapons because they might get hit by some of the Nukes themselves. They won't risk their lives for the Soviets.
 
Yes, but a Nazi A-bomb on LONDON, which is what I was responding to, WILL result in the extinction of the German race.

Why?

London is a big city, and the 'Little Adolf' is going to be at most 20 kilotons, not even close enough to obliterate it. According to wikipedia, the Greater London area covers 1,583 square kilometers (admittedly modern day). A 25 kiloton nuclear bomb will cause 3rd degree burns within a 2.6 kilometers radius of ground zero, or a region of 21.237 square kilometers, a whopping 1.35% of the Greater London area.

I don't think the British will break out the anthrax over this, although Berlin and Nuremburg getting the Hamburg treatment seems likely.

Nuclear Figures from here: Link

And whilst looking at these figures, I retract my earlier argument that Nazis could wrangle a white peace with nukes. They'd need fusion warheads, which would require a complete and utter rewriting of the 1920s on to happen.
 
There is really no way that the Germans could produce an atomic bomb, even if they realized that it was feasible and made it a high priority. Look at the extent, complexity and sheer cost of the Manhattan Project. There is no way that Germany could have undertaken a similar program.
IIRC didn't the main part of Germany's nuclear programme end up in a small-ish cave dug into the side of a hill? Compared to the Manhattan Project that kind of says it all.


Yes, but a Nazi A-bomb on LONDON, which is what I was responding to, WILL result in the extinction of the German race.
Probably won't result in Operation Vegetarian straight off the bat but it's going to be open season on German cities, expect them to get Dresdened/Hamburged in short order. :eek:
 
It never fails. Every three months or so we get another new member with a username the same as a German WW2 aircraft fapping over nukes/gas/biologics with a Nazi win as the objective.
 

Flubber

Banned
It never fails. Every three months or so we get another new member with a username the same as a German WW2 aircraft fapping over nukes/gas/biologics with a Nazi win as the objective.


Sad, isn't it?

It's a variation on Eternal September of course. The best course of action is to refuse to otherwise post in the "noob/boob" threads they create other than to point them at the search function.
 
Well technically I'm a n00b too, but I did lurk for a very long time before signing on (since the start of CalBears PacWarRedux so 2008... )
 
A German nuclear weapon during WWII is not ASB. It wouldn't be decisive, either, as it's been pointed out, because the amount of bombs that could be produced was very limited.

The biggest mistake of the nuclear project was the decision of using heavy water as moderator. Heavy water was very expensive and of slow production, even with the control Norway facilities. Even without the sabotage of said facilities, German scientists didn't believe they could have ready a nuclear battery in time for the end of the war, which made the project fall out of priority.

The focal point is why Heisenberg decided to use heavy water as moderator instead of graphite (as he had suggested in December, 1939). This decision was based on a research paper by Bothe on the efficiency as moderators of water, heavy water and graphite. Heisenberg noted that the paper was using a "slightly impure" graphite for the measurements, but he still decided that it wouldn't do it, despite being much more abundant and easy to get a hold of.

This decision has been enough to feed a conspiracy theory where Heisenberg took part in the project under threats and he attempted to sabotage it from within. Others think that it was just Heisenberg not being able to own up to his own mistakes.

In any case, if they had decided to use graphite to build a nuclear reactor, they would have had a significant advantage over the Manhattan Project. Not only the Manhattan Project started much later (although the preliminar research began in 1940), the nazis also counted with the people who had done the original research on nuclear fission.

It's often pointed out that the Germans had many errors in the conception of the differences between bomb and reactor and on how to detonate the bomb. But the same lack of adequate ideas was present in the Manhattan Project, and it was the development of the nuclear reactor what helped understand how to do it properly.

Now, being imaginative and using a bit of handwavium to obtain an absolute best case scenario, it could give the Nazi Germany an advantage. Only if the research, the development of the nuclear reactor, and the isotope separation went absolutely flawless, and they could obtain a bomb in slightly less time than it took the Americans. And only if used tactically.

The handwavium timeline would be:the Nazis develop a working atomic battery in late '40 early '41 and develop a prototype bomb by mid '43, they forgo a trinity-like testing in favor of actually using it in battle. By '44, they have other 2 bombs they can use in the Italian front and in the Normandy invasion. At this point the allies might decide to go use their own chemical weapons, and the Americans probably can see that Trinity is a waste of time and test their first nuke on the battlefield against Germany.
I am thinking that seeing how an invasion from Normandy is a no-go now, they can try create their new front by invading Spain, and probably Spain and France would become the battlefields of a limited nuclear exchange and not-so-limited chemical warfare. And the allies would end up giving a green light to the Operation Vegetarian.
 
A German nuclear weapon during WWII is not ASB. It wouldn't be decisive, either, as it's been pointed out, because the amount of bombs that could be produced was very limited.

The biggest mistake of the nuclear project was the decision of using heavy water as moderator. Heavy water was very expensive and of slow production, even with the control Norway facilities. Even without the sabotage of said facilities, German scientists didn't believe they could have ready a nuclear battery in time for the end of the war, which made the project fall out of priority.

The focal point is why Heisenberg decided to use heavy water as moderator instead of graphite (as he had suggested in December, 1939). This decision was based on a research paper by Bothe on the efficiency as moderators of water, heavy water and graphite. Heisenberg noted that the paper was using a "slightly impure" graphite for the measurements, but he still decided that it wouldn't do it, despite being much more abundant and easy to get a hold of.

This decision has been enough to feed a conspiracy theory where Heisenberg took part in the project under threats and he attempted to sabotage it from within. Others think that it was just Heisenberg not being able to own up to his own mistakes.

In any case, if they had decided to use graphite to build a nuclear reactor, they would have had a significant advantage over the Manhattan Project. Not only the Manhattan Project started much later (although the preliminar research began in 1940), the nazis also counted with the people who had done the original research on nuclear fission.

It's often pointed out that the Germans had many errors in the conception of the differences between bomb and reactor and on how to detonate the bomb. But the same lack of adequate ideas was present in the Manhattan Project, and it was the development of the nuclear reactor what helped understand how to do it properly.

Now, being imaginative and using a bit of handwavium to obtain an absolute best case scenario, it could give the Nazi Germany an advantage. Only if the research, the development of the nuclear reactor, and the isotope separation went absolutely flawless, and they could obtain a bomb in slightly less time than it took the Americans. And only if used tactically.

The handwavium timeline would be:the Nazis develop a working atomic battery in late '40 early '41 and develop a prototype bomb by mid '43, they forgo a trinity-like testing in favor of actually using it in battle. By '44, they have other 2 bombs they can use in the Italian front and in the Normandy invasion. At this point the allies might decide to go use their own chemical weapons, and the Americans probably can see that Trinity is a waste of time and test their first nuke on the battlefield against Germany.
I am thinking that seeing how an invasion from Normandy is a no-go now, they can try create their new front by invading Spain, and probably Spain and France would become the battlefields of a limited nuclear exchange and not-so-limited chemical warfare. And the allies would end up giving a green light to the Operation Vegetarian.

And the Nazis get hold of some infected people, purify the anthrax spores, and use anthrax on the Allied armies.

Bottom line, WWII becomes a pure bloodbath.
 
Is heavy water plant at Telemark, Norway still destroyed? What about Peenemunde?
IOTL Norway production was disabled in sabotage campaigns from late 1942 to 1943 when it was finally destroyed. By this time it's already too late, anyway, the Americans have a working atomic pile and will get the bomb first. And the Germans weren't even near. So the actual contribution of those sabotages and bombings against the German nuclear project was negligible.
In fact, it caused Germany to finally switch to graphite as a moderator. One could wonder what would have happened if the Allies had destroyed those facilities before letting them fall in nazi hands. It might have caused the Germans to switch to graphite by June '40, which might have given them a small temporal edge over the Manhattan Project.

And yes, Germany had its own production of heavy water, but less than Norway, and much less than what was needed.
 
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So it seems we've agreed that Germany cannot develop a weapon by 1945. But what would its chances be if we assume the following?

1. Nazi Germany isn't as...Nazi. No holocaust, less politicization of science.
2. Instead of Barbarossa, Germany focuses on holding Italy and Normandy and keeping the pressure on Britain.
3. Hitler for some reason decides that nuclear weapons are feasible, and because Germany has more resources and scientists (see no.1) in this TL, one of the avenues of investigation is actually on the right track.

EDIT: The best scenario seems to be the radical but non-Nazi militarist governments that are in a few 1930 TLs around here.

A radical militarist government would at the same time have less incentive to develop the bomb. Your enemy can't pay reparations to finance your industry if their industry is irradiated ash on its way east by prevailing wind.
 

Tannhäuser

Banned
I'm not sure Germany would care so much about Soviet reparations when they could just take over all of Eastern Europe instead.
 
As for bomber, if the nazis can make a nuke they can make a B-52.

*sarcasm*

Or they could use the ubiquitous flying pigs, that would be in wide use by LW by the time the Germans get around to producing A-bomb in WW2. If one cannot handle the weight of the bomb, four could carry it in the sack tied at the corners to their necks.

*sarcasm off*

Seriously, Germany produces A-bomb with 1940 POD AND Nazis in power? No way. They don't have the industrial and scientific capability to make this. Hell, USA invented whole new areas of metallurgy and material sciences in the quest to make the Bomb, not to mention investing billions into it. They were able to do this because there was no danger of bombing or anything else that might disrupt production and research, plus they had access to the best minds in the world.

Germany, as someone already pointed out, has no way to commit to this kind of long term sustained effort which is necessarry to produce a working weapon.
 
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