WI the European & Pacific wars weren't mostly simultaneous?

WI for whatever reason the TLs of the European and Pacific theatres of WW2 ended up in conflicts that were not simultaneous? By TLs I mean everything from diplomacy and re-armament to actual hostilities of all combatants, no country is better or worse off than OTL. For example the invasion of Norway and France happened in 1939 and Al Alamien and Stalingrad in late 1941, Pearl Harbour in late 1942 and Midway in mid 43.

Probably ASB, or if not, would make WW2 unrecognisable but any thoughts?
 
Pearl in 1942 would seriously change everything though.Although the Nazis would inevitably still get beaten in Europe(probably still within 1945) and the Japnese would lose in Asia(1946?) It would completely change the Cold War.
 

nbcman

Donor
The US may enter the European War due to USN convoy battles against u-boats before Dec 42. Which would result in the US having more of a European focus to their material production in '42 (increased Army/Air Corp production and reduced Naval production) without the shock of PH in Dec 41.

But what would cause PH to slip a year? If the Japanese slowed their advances in East Asia which would delay the embargos and improved their diplomacy, then the Japanese may not even wish to attack a theoretically more alert/better armed US.
 

Bearcat

Banned
Pacific Earlier

might make more sense.

China incident and Panay sinking gets out of hand; an IJN ship sinks an American Asiatic Fleet destroyer off China, everything slides down the drain in 1937.

In 1939 europe lights off and Japan, desperate for resources, moves south from the Philippines into NEI.

By 1940 the Marianas have fallen, and the return to PI is imminent. Hitler takes France and the low countries.

In '41, the US returns to the PI, then takes Formosa. B-17s out of Formosa burn the Japanese cities to the ground.

Mid-Atlantic incidents in the autumn such as the sinking of the Reuben James on Halloween make it a global war at last. FDR agrees to switch to a Germany Firstmost strategy, leaving only enough naval assets in the Pacific to maintain the blockade of the Home Islands.

There is no invasion in '41 or '42. Half the Japanese starve before the weakened government disintegrates and the Emperor forces a surrender to Admiral Richardson's Pacific Fleet command in January of '43.

Meanwhile, after a rough first six months, Germany is getting it's clock cleaned. The disasters in North Africa and Stalingrad leave the Wehrmacht in a bad position.

Massive amounts of invasion shipping have assembled in England. The US Marine 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th divisions are all moved to England. The Pacific 5th and 7th Air Forces are redeployed. Admiral King shells the French coast day and night. The U-Boats are driven from the Atlantic.

The excellent P-44 and P-51 fighters, which mastered the zero in Asia, now pummel the Luftwaffe as they escort the 8th Air Force's B-17s and B-24s deep into Germany.

On June 1, 1943, the Allies launch Sledgehammer, the invasion of France. Eight US and four UK / Commonwealth divisions land in Normandy. Aftre slow progress the first two months, the Allied armies are built up to a 48-division force which breaks out during Operation Zephyr (August 3-11, 1943) and traps the cream of the defending Wehrmacht forces at the Battle of the Mortagne Pocket. Paris falls ten days later, and General George Patton's Third Army races off for Germany, with General Brooke's First British Army moving into the Low Countries.

The Russians begin to advance from the east, liberating most of Russia and the Ukraine, then defeat the Germans in a massive battle in Byelorussia in October.

Hitler irrationally tries to attack on both fronts in December. He delays the allied advance two weeks and the Russians about 3. Little is left after that to stop the advancing armies. The Americans cross the Rhine in late January. Bombers now operating from France smash Berlin and Germany's industry to rubble. Berlin falls to Patton on April 7, 1943, but Hitler has cheated the hangman, killing himself two days earlier.

Anglo-American armies continue eastward, liberating most of Poland and Czechoslovakia before linking up with the Red Army in May at Deblen, Danzig and Bratislava. On May Day, Admiral Raeder signs the unconditional surrender of all German forces to the Three Allies. World War II is finally over.
 
If the Pacific war started in 1937 I'm thinking a similar lead up to OTL although perhaps compressed somewhat; invasion of Manchuria, abrogation of Washington Treaty, Japanese advances, US rearmament, war. In this TL with war starting in 1937 the US, Britain, France etc are geared up by the time Germany goes to war in 1940, so may be better able to deal with the greater German threat.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
The biggest difficulty with moving the Pacific War around is the window where Japan had the smallest chance of success is so small. They needed six decks to deal with the Pearl Harbor attack; it was a miracle that the Shokaku & Zuikaku were both worked up and ready by 12/7/41 as was (Zuikaku was in commission for just 60 days when it set off with the rest of the Kido Butai).

The Zero wasn't available in numbers until mid 1941, prior to that date the A5M was the primary IJN carrier fighter and there were exactly ZERO D3A in the as late as mid 1940 leaving the dive bomber duties to the D1A with its smaller bomb load and 500 mile range as the fleet dive bomber. This would have forced the Fleet to move within 100 miles of Pearl Harbor to amke its attack, assuming that any attack would even be attempted.

By mid-1942 the Army, USAAF and USN would have begun to reap the benefits of the 1940 Budget Acts and would have been a far more difficult target. Imagine the Philippines with fully trained up and armed Divisions, a couple hundred B-17, and swarms of P-38 & P-40 fighters (rather like the situation in place in my Pacific War Redux TL, except even worse), the Pacific Fleet with several FAST BB and possibly as many as 3 more carriers, and the primary torpedo bomber being the TBF (and a version of the F6F beginning to reach the fleet).

Japan had a six month window to try to either knock the U.S. out of the war or create a strong enough defensive perimeter that the U.S. decided it wasn't worth the effort (& yes, the chances of either happening were close to zero) before the U.S. grew so strong that it would simply roll over the Japanese, as eventually happened IOTL.
 
I suspect too that Japan was glad that they got Indochina without a fight and Britain was tied up with Germany, and Hitler was glad that the Japanese were fighting the US. I think the Axis needed the simultaneous war and thus drove it to occur.
 

Bearcat

Banned
1937

War in 1937 would not have been anyone's plan. It would have to be a 1914-style cockup, with events just getting out of control. The Kwantung Army pretty much commits atrocities against Americans, the fallout back home leads indirectly to a series of assassinations, the new gov't, terrified of its own crazies, tries to placate them by being just as crazy, the US responds with a naval force, someone starts shooting. Not likely, but not impossible.

No advance plan. No Pearl Harbor. It's a 'come as you are' party.

The US, suspicious after the initial naval incident, probably avoids sailing into an outright Japanese trap. The IJN is less agressive than OTL as it wasn't expecting war. The P.I. get invaded in later '37 or early '38, but Singapore may get left alone for a while.

Carriers are more evenly matched than OTL. I'll defer to Calbear on biplane fighters (Claudes and F3Fs?). The Devastator when ready is a good aircraft in this TL, until the Zero appears in 40-41.

When Europe goes to hell too, the IJN will try to seize the N.E.I. (assuming they still hold the Philippines) and maybe Singapore to protect their flank.

US torpedoes still suck (they were designed 20s / early 30s). Probably still takes 2-3 years to shake that out, then the subs strangle Japan's shipping.

Massive shipbuilding in 1937/8 through 1942 means eventually dozens of Yorktown and Essex class CVs, fast BBs et al reach the fleet starting in 1939 and many more in 1940-1. Soon, the gig is up as the IJN is driven from the Pacific...
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
War in 1937 would not have been anyone's plan. It would have to be a 1914-style cockup, with events just getting out of control. The Kwantung Army pretty much commits atrocities against Americans, the fallout back home leads indirectly to a series of assassinations, the new gov't, terrified of its own crazies, tries to placate them by being just as crazy, the US responds with a naval force, someone starts shooting. Not likely, but not impossible.

No advance plan. No Pearl Harbor. It's a 'come as you are' party.

The US, suspicious after the initial naval incident, probably avoids sailing into an outright Japanese trap. The IJN is less agressive than OTL as it wasn't expecting war. The P.I. get invaded in later '37 or early '38, but Singapore may get left alone for a while.

Carriers are more evenly matched than OTL. I'll defer to Calbear on biplane fighters (Claudes and F3Fs?). The Devastator when ready is a good aircraft in this TL, until the Zero appears in 40-41.

When Europe goes to hell too, the IJN will try to seize the N.E.I. (assuming they still hold the Philippines) and maybe Singapore to protect their flank.

US torpedoes still suck (they were designed 20s / early 30s). Probably still takes 2-3 years to shake that out, then the subs strangle Japan's shipping.

Massive shipbuilding in 1937/8 through 1942 means eventually dozens of Yorktown and Essex class CVs, fast BBs et al reach the fleet starting in 1939 and many more in 1940-1. Soon, the gig is up as the IJN is driven from the Pacific...


That is another reason that a really early start to the Pacific War is unlikely, the Royal Navy. The IJN tries for the "Southern Resource Area" in 1938 and the Brits will stomp them flat.

The A5M was the first Japanese Monoplane carrier fighter (fixed landing gear, open cockpit, somewhat similar to the P-26 in appearance). A war in 1937 - early 1938 would have featured the A2N which was somewhat outmatched by the F3F and BF2C and the Gloster Gladiator. The A4N was something of a failure and was only in the fleet for a bit over a year before being overtaken by the A5M and while a bit closer to the Western designs was still questionable. The A5M was an extrememy manueverable design, but slow, roughly the same speed as the F3F and even more lightly armed than the American aircraft. It also carried the IJN design curse of weight = bad construction so it was quite flimsy.

The reality is that in 1937 carriers were no where near the weapon they would be just a few years later. The evolution of combat aircraft design was just starting.
 
That is another reason that a really early start to the Pacific War is unlikely, the Royal Navy. The IJN tries for the "Southern Resource Area" in 1938 and the Brits will stomp them flat.

The A5M was the first Japanese Monoplane carrier fighter (fixed landing gear, open cockpit, somewhat similar to the P-26 in appearance). A war in 1937 - early 1938 would have featured the A2N which was somewhat outmatched by the F3F and BF2C and the Gloster Gladiator. The A4N was something of a failure and was only in the fleet for a bit over a year before being overtaken by the A5M and while a bit closer to the Western designs was still questionable. The A5M was an extrememy manueverable design, but slow, roughly the same speed as the F3F and even more lightly armed than the American aircraft. It also carried the IJN design curse of weight = bad construction so it was quite flimsy.

The reality is that in 1937 carriers were no where near the weapon they would be just a few years later. The evolution of combat aircraft design was just starting.
I Guess The Opposite Situation, is Technically Possible ...

The POD in that Case, Would be The French Curb-Stomping The Germans, When The Latter ATTEMPT to Re-Militarize The Rhineland, in 1936!

However, Without The British, And Especially The Dutch, Tied up in Europe ...

I Just don't See The Japanese, Risking a Confrontation with ABDA!
 
Top