WI the East adopts Western shipbuilding techniques in the XVI Century?

The East was able to resist the first wave of European explorers in the XVI century. The Mughals in India, Japan, and others quickly adopted Western weapons (= gunpowder, guns and cannons), and avoided suffering the fate of Pre-columbian civilizations* (at least for several centuries). Yet none of these countries, as far as I know, adopted Western shipbuilding technics.

The Ottomans had a good fleet, but it was good in the Mediterrean, not in the Ocean (their Oceanic ships were inferior to the Portuguese ones). I think Japan had a British captain build him a ship, but then it chose to forbid its subjects to go overseas.

So, what if they had decided to adopt MARITIME Western tech? Which is the best suited country for this? What would have happened if this had been the case?

* I know there were many reasons for this different fate: mainly, their tech level was far behind that of the East.
 
China built very sturdy oceangoing ships in the decades prior to the European arrival in the Indian Ocean. I think these could have mounted a successful challenge to Portugal's dominance in the IO, if only the Chinese had hung around a few more decades. Oh well.
 
I'm not sure whether China and india can be consaidered to have adopted gunpowder as a European technology as much as simply having been part of the continuum that these weapons existed in. Japan is probably a better case - they cribbed their handgunss directly from the Portuguese and their artillery from the Koreans. But generally, the tedch flow through Eurasia was still in both directions in the 16th century.

As to maritime technology, I think that was a combination of several factors.

First off, a ship is a very complex technology that requires a large pool of skilled labour to build and operate. While every gunsmith can copy a Michelet lock and every warrior appreciates a faster, more reliable gun, not every shipwright an build a galleon, even with a plan, nor every captain sail or every sailor crew one. That takes everybody out of the equation who isn't an established great power with the resources for a long-term tech programme.

The second aspect ties into the first - it is almost impossible to find one person who can teach every aspect of the technology. You would have to import an entire package of shipwrights, blacksmiths, sailors, gunners and probably a whole bunch of others I'm forgetting to transfer the tech.

The third aspect is cultural - not every culture readily bends to the kind of ferocious discipline and rigid hierarchy that makes a big ship work. I'm pretty sure Japan and China would have had no trouble. the Malay states or East African sultanates - less sure. Europe itself at the time was engaged in pushing this shift through with hanging and buirning, and it took a long time until the authorities could make that degree of social disciopline stick.

The fourth is need. Europe's sea powers at the time needed power projection capability across the Atlantic and Indian Ocean. European maritime technology is designed for that purpose. Which Eastern power had similar needs?

And finally, recognition of potential. In the sixteenth century, European maritime technology was good, but not noticeably better than what China or Japan had. It's a bit like vacuum tubes and early semiconducting technology in the forties and fifties - they did the same thing, and if you weren't an expert you had no way of seeing where the great potential lay.
 

Hendryk

Banned
The second aspect ties into the first - it is almost impossible to find one person who can teach every aspect of the technology. You would have to import an entire package of shipwrights, blacksmiths, sailors, gunners and probably a whole bunch of others I'm forgetting to transfer the tech.
Early Ming China had that package. All the specialized crafts that go into building a ship were there and then some--enough to arm the largest navy in the world and send it all the way to Africa. While my own earlier speculation on Chinese expansion in the 15th century was admittedly a Sinowank, it's fair to say that if the Chinese had kept up with even a scaled-down version of their expeditions for just a couple more decades, they would have been able to meet the Portuguese on technologically equal terms. From there, the need to keep up with the Westerners lest they threaten China's sphere of influence would likely have made the process of technological improvement self-sustaining.

The third aspect is cultural - not every culture readily bends to the kind of ferocious discipline and rigid hierarchy that makes a big ship work. I'm pretty sure Japan and China would have had no trouble. the Malay states or East African sultanates - less sure. Europe itself at the time was engaged in pushing this shift through with hanging and buirning, and it took a long time until the authorities could make that degree of social disciopline stick.
Indeed, Confucian societies have a marked advantage in this regard.
 
India was a Major ship Builder. In fact the Europeans had to put a lot of effort into destroying India's Capability.
 
Early Ming China had that package. All the specialized crafts that go into building a ship were there and then some--enough to arm the largest navy in the world and send it all the way to Africa. While my own earlier speculation on Chinese expansion in the 15th century was admittedly a Sinowank, it's fair to say that if the Chinese had kept up with even a scaled-down version of their expeditions for just a couple more decades, they would have been able to meet the Portuguese on technologically equal terms. From there, the need to keep up with the Westerners lest they threaten China's sphere of influence would likely have made the process of technological improvement self-sustaining.

I would say China hasd a different package that would not have translated well. I'm no maritime engineer so I can't say how its potential compares to Europe's, but I can't see China profiting much from importing European shipwrights, or vice versa. As Clancy says 'They're a funny bunch and like to build things their own way.'
 
India was a Major ship Builder. In fact the Europeans had to put a lot of effort into destroying India's Capability.

It was? I mean, of course India hads a shipbuilding industry - the place was as big as Europe and a lot richer, it was bound to have one - but from everything I've read and heard, it was technologically way behind either Europe or China. When the EIC started building ships in India on a large scale they adopted European models (and said their yards made the best ships in the world).
 
The Japanese hired Spanish shipbuilders ca. 1610 and built at least one European-style galleon as far I know. The problem is that Sakoku came shortly after and having widespread long-travel oceanic vessels wasn't the best thing to enforce it. Naturally, those Japanese galleons would survive in a non-Sakoku TL but in that case the changes in Japan would be a lot more.
 
It was? I mean, of course India hads a shipbuilding industry - the place was as big as Europe and a lot richer, it was bound to have one - but from everything I've read and heard, it was technologically way behind either Europe or China. When the EIC started building ships in India on a large scale they adopted European models (and said their yards made the best ships in the world).

South India had a huge maritime tradition, though not a naval one. India when the Portuguese first arrived wasn't really any more technologically backward than, say, the Ottomans. It was just that with a massive collection of Balkanised states it was easier for foreign powers to subvert and snap them up bit by bit.

Even in the 18th C Indian armies were still giving European ones a run for their money.

I'm not sure what your point about the EIC was- why wouldn't an European organisation use European designs?
 
And finally, recognition of potential. In the sixteenth century, European maritime technology was good, but not noticeably better than what China or Japan had. It's a bit like vacuum tubes and early semiconducting technology in the forties and fifties - they did the same thing, and if you weren't an expert you had no way of seeing where the great potential lay.

Would it be possible to combine junk sails with a European hull? Like OTL's Lorcha, but on a wider scale?
 
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