WI The Dominion of Soissons survives?

[YourWaifuForLaifu]

A quick question that I think has some interesting potential ramifications.

For those who don't know, the Dominion of Soissons was a rump Roman state founded by the Roman general Aegidius after the assassination of Emperor Majorian. For 25 years, he and his son Syagrius ruled over the Gallo-Romans, before the conquest of the state by the Franks lead by Clovis in 486.

What would happen if the state survived? Assume Clovis either dies in battle or never unifies the Franks. What would the culture and language of France and Germany look like without the Frankish conquests? How long would the Gallo-Roman culture last without Rome, and what would it evolve into over time? In addition, what would the religious landscape of Europe look like without Clovis's conversion to Christianity? How long would the pagan chiefdom of Germany and Central Europe be able to maintain their religion before converting?

And in addition, while Aegidius and Sygarius never styled themselves as Roman Emperors, but as Dux, a mere provincial governor. But assuming one of their children gets particularly... revanchy, what would the most likely targets be for a hypothetical "Gallic Empire"? And what would be the repercussions of such a state?

Thank you for your help!

 

[Avrorrange]

Ask @LSCatilina .He seems to be quite knowledgeable in this area.

 

[RogueTraderEnthusiast]

Whilst I'm not sure the PoD alone would lead to the outcome, if you can somehow have Soissons survive and thrive (specifically, getting access to Mediterranean Ports), I think it'd become incredibly important. Soissons wouldn't be recognised as the WRE by any means, not any time soon at least, but I could see it being a major trade partner for the Romans in the East.

I think they'd probably be able to reach for the title of Exarch, or something similar to that, probably gifted by an Emperor. But without a doubt, it would change the concepts of reconquest.

Not that the butteflies would allow it, but if you had Soissons AND Justinian? Soissons can invade from the north, and Belisarius from the south. Making any invasion much quicker.

It'd be interesting. Hard to pull off, but I'd love to read something like that.

 

[Tom Colton]

Not that the butteflies would allow it, but if you had Soissons AND Justinian? Soissons can invade from the north, and Belisarius from the south. Making any invasion much quicker.

While putting the Ostrogoths on a two-front state works, coordination involves invading through the Alps.

...can Justinian loan them some elephants from the Vandal lands?

 

[RogueTraderEnthusiast]

While putting the Ostrogoths on a two-front state works, coordination involves invading through the Alps.

...can Justinian loan them some elephants from the Vandal lands?

Well, there is the coastline too. It'd be a hard slog, but a number of smaller invasions over the alps and along the coast would occupy more resources than the Ostrogoths can really afford to spare, especially with a southern invasion. Co-ordination within Soissons is more important than any other form until Soissons gets into N.Italy, and that simply requires enough independent pressure for one front to splinter.

 

[Noblesse Oblige]

Yeah, but you guys probably don't realize. Assuming the Franks come down with a case of catastrophe, how are they going to even reach Italy to coordinate with the ERE in any capacity? There are two barbarian kingdoms standing between Soissons and Ostrogothic Italy, that is the Burgundian Kingdom to the south east(which wouldn't seem like an issue at first but they would make good on being able to stab someone in the back.) and the Visigothic Kingdom to the south. Couple that with the Alamans to the east and I think Soissons will be tied down for some time to come.

Also in terms of language from the OP, a surviving Soissons would have a language that would still develop in a similar (but in the same fashion) as French and the other langues d'oil. Despite the fact of a lack of Frankish conquest, there were still Franks living within the territories of the Dominion, and as such their language would see some influence in Gallic-esque Vulgar Latin. But to be honest, if I were to make a good guess, I'd say the Vulgar Latin in Soissons, and what it could evolve into, would ultimately be more influenced from the Celtic Gaulish language.

Long story short on language, the influences on Old French, being Vulgar Latin, influenced heavily by Frankish and less so Gaulish, would probably be inverted.

 

[cmakk1012]

If Soissons considers itself a continuation of Rome, it has the same impetus to eventually invade Italy that the ERE did. It might accept being an Exarchate at first, but if it snowballed enough it would eventually become a new Western Empire.

Long-term, you’d see the Eastern and Western Empires become titles claimed by successor states in a more overt way than OTL as a source of legitimacy.

 

[RogueTraderEnthusiast]

Yeah, but you guys probably don't realize. Assuming the Franks come down with a case of catastrophe, how are they going to even reach Italy to coordinate with the ERE in any capacity? There are two barbarian kingdoms standing between Soissons and Ostrogothic Italy, that is the Burgundian Kingdom to the south east(which wouldn't seem like an issue at first but they would make good on being able to stab someone in the back.) and the Visigothic Kingdom to the south. Couple that with the Alamans to the east and I think Soissons will be tied down for some time to come.

Also in terms of language from the OP, a surviving Soissons would have a language that would still develop in a similar (but in the same fashion) as French and the other langues d'oil. Despite the fact of a lack of Frankish conquest, there were still Franks living within the territories of the Dominion, and as such their language would see some influence in Gallic-esque Vulgar Latin. But to be honest, if I were to make a good guess, I'd say the Vulgar Latin in Soissons, and what it could evolve into, would ultimately be more influenced from the Celtic Gaulish language.

Long story short on language, the influences on Old French, being Vulgar Latin, influenced heavily by Frankish and less so Gaulish, would probably be inverted.

Speaking for me - I don't see co-operation until Soissons can get its own ports - which will lead to it having a weird old mix of troops being reorganised as it grows. How it does that would drastically impact speed - it could go for buying slaves and making them soldiers (or simply capturing those it can), or creating a system of Foedi levies, or whatever. It'd need to stand on its own two feet. If that means an alliance with Burgundy and the Suebi to limit the Visigoths, only to later turn on Burgundy - that is an approach. Hey, if the Franks fall, the rise of Soissons could (I don't know enough details) involve a partnership with the Alamans - splitting the Franks territory along the Rhine - with Soissons recognising the Alaman as the rightful rulers of all of Germania (described as all lands east of the Rhine and north of the Danube).

Diplomatic shenanegans would be required, but a Suebi Spain, Roman Gaul (that includes the various former Foedi peoples), and Alaman Germania? It'd be an interesting situation - and could lead to the Rhine exploding in importance. A Soissonian? Rhine would be in a good place to trade with the ERE, if the Vandals and Ostrogoths can be navigated, and then the Rhine is a great way to bring goods north to the Alaman.

If Soissons considers itself a continuation of Rome, it has the same impetus to eventually invade Italy that the ERE did. It might accept being an Exarchate at first, but if it snowballed enough it would eventually become a new Western Empire.

Long-term, you’d see the Eastern and Western Empires become titles claimed by successor states in a more overt way than OTL as a source of legitimacy.

I think it'd depend on how Soissons conducts itself. The scenario I outlined above wouldn't accomodate that for quite a long time. Not without maintaining the Alaman as allies.

Interestingly, to me at least, it seems an Alaman-Soissons alliance could turn the Rhine from dangerous frontier to "The only safe border". What impact would that have on Germania?

 

[cmakk1012]

I think it'd depend on how Soissons conducts itself. The scenario I outlined above wouldn't accomodate that for quite a long time. Not without maintaining the Alaman as allies.

Interestingly, to me at least, it seems an Alaman-Soissons alliance could turn the Rhine from dangerous frontier to "The only safe border". What impact would that have on Germania?

True, Soissons would be involved in the politics of Northwest Europe for quite some time. In that scenario, I guess the Alaman would start expanding east while Soissons pushes south and west (into Brittany).

The Alaman at this point are still pagan. Do they convert to Christianity due to Soissonian relations or do they resist? If they don’t convert I could see them pulling a Great Heathen Army on Gaul or Italy eventually.

What effect does this scenario have on Britannia? At this point it’s still sub-Roman in culture; if Soissons invades Brittany or otherwise incorporates it do they ever launch an invasion of Britannia proper?

 

[RogueTraderEnthusiast]

True, Soissons would be involved in the politics of Northwest Europe for quite some time. In that scenario, I guess the Alaman would start expanding east while Soissons pushes south and west (into Brittany).

The Alaman at this point are still pagan. Do they convert to Christianity due to Soissonian relations or do they resist? If they don’t convert I could see them pulling a Great Heathen Army on Gaul or Italy eventually.

What effect does this scenario have on Britannia? At this point it’s still sub-Roman in culture; if Soissons invades Brittany or otherwise incorporates it do they ever launch an invasion of Britannia proper?

Depends on when. Invading Britannia does expose Soissons to further complications - and it was never THAT useful. But say after unifying Gaul? It isn't as wealthy as Italy, but it is less unified and powerful. Perhaps it'd be a titular Rex Britannorum? Likely with a Dux or two that were the real powers in Britain and Ireland (say a Saxon one, a Breton one, and an Irish one, and later a Cumbric or Scottish one). I can only see it being hands off, mainly to ensure smooth trade. So likely only a few sites would be under direct control of Soissons (such as Tin mines in the SW, etc).

 

[History Learner]

Had Childeric I died in exile, Aegidius probably could've cemented his control over the Franks and, with the combined resources of both entities, probably could've taken a good portion of Visigothic Gaul from them after the war with them. This would've meant a WRE remnant state that ends up "Germanizing" in the same way the Eastern Empire later underwent Hellenization, which is a fascinating thought to me. For an excellent take on this, and I honestly rate it as one of the best TLs on here, see @galileo-034 Roman Gallia.

 

[Raferty]

The difference between Romanized Franks and Barbarized Romans like Syragius was not nearly as large as we often think. Soissons was a militarized frontier region basically from the mid 4th century on, and arguably earlier. It would not really inherit much in the way of Roman institutions or traditions, especially as time goes on. Syragius was simply one petty strongman of many.

Now, if he is able to win a war or two and take over the very much rich and still quite culturally Roman areas of Southern Gaul and Aquitania, and thereby have access to the Mediterranean and contact and trade with the Eastern Roman Empire, he would be in the position to claim legitimacy and support that could be quite substantial. The Visigoths in Hispania after all were kind of weak.

 

[galileo-034]

Thanks for the comment, but I have to temper that as it was a very handwave scenario of mine in my early years on this forum, without much historical accuracy.
Still, I have not abandonned the idea and I've developed another scenario that is currently sleeping (I won't mind if someone tries to resurrect it).

Currently, that scenario takes its POD at the battle of Déols in 469 AD that gives a balkanized Gaul by the eve of the 6th century.
The thing is that Visigothic King Euric is killed in the battle and his death triggers a succession struggle that sees Visigothic gains of the past decade reversed, in Aquitain where they are eventually contained (roughly Toulouse, Bordeaux, Gascony and Poitou), in Iberian peninsula where the reunified Suevi under Remismund eventually throw them back north of the Pyrenees (they were initially invited here by WRE to defeat expanding Suevi in the 450s) and capture remaining Roman provinces after WRE falls.
The WRE still falls but the picture is much different in Gaul, with Burgundians taking over Provence instead, and Visigoths taking once again Narbonne and Septimania (IOTL, it changed hands between WRE and Visigoths rather frequently).
By the 480s, we end up with two gallo-roman states, one based in Auvergne under the Avitii family and the other we know as of Soissons, centered on the Seine bassin, Paris and Orleans, under the Syagrii family.
Between, Britanny, lower Normandy and the Loire basin below Orleans is divided between Saxon, Briton and Alan chieftains.
Auvergne is consistently aligned on Burgundians while the Syagrii are playing between Franks and Visigoths (as IOTL).
A secondary POD is that, in this context, the conquest attempt of Clovis (who lacked his father's self restraint and diplomacy) suffers an ignominious end as he is betrayed during the battle by Chararic, eventually preventing the unification of the Frankish state, keeping it divided between Salians, Ripuarians, Tournai, Cambrai, etc.

 

[cmakk1012]

Depends on when. Invading Britannia does expose Soissons to further complications - and it was never THAT useful. But say after unifying Gaul? It isn't as wealthy as Italy, but it is less unified and powerful. Perhaps it'd be a titular Rex Britannorum? Likely with a Dux or two that were the real powers in Britain and Ireland (say a Saxon one, a Breton one, and an Irish one, and later a Cumbric or Scottish one). I can only see it being hands off, mainly to ensure smooth trade. So likely only a few sites would be under direct control of Soissons (such as Tin mines in the SW, etc).

Britannia would be a prestige project—just like the first time around!

If an invasion succeeded, I guess there’d be a mix of Brittonic and Anglo-Saxon petty lords in OTL England? Totally Celtic in Wales, Scot/Pictland, and Ireland, though. The Dux would of course go for independence eventually, but might get cowed into submission if Soissons is strong enough or Viking attacks begin as OTL.

The difference between Romanized Franks and Barbarized Romans like Syragius was not nearly as large as we often think. Soissons was a militarized frontier region basically from the mid 4th century on, and arguably earlier. It would not really inherit much in the way of Roman institutions or traditions, especially as time goes on. Syragius was simply one petty strongman of many.

Now, if he is able to win a war or two and take over the very much rich and still quite culturally Roman areas of Southern Gaul and Aquitania, and thereby have access to the Mediterranean and contact and trade with the Eastern Roman Empire, he would be in the position to claim legitimacy and support that could be quite substantial. The Visigoths in Hispania after all were kind of weak.

I guess it would be more “distinctive” if Soissons kept a Roman character. If it became a Germanized Gallic state it would just be too similar to OTL

I don’t think such a state would last long without the south, anyway, as the wealth was concentrated there and there’d be an impetus to reunite Gallia one way or the other.

 

[Noblesse Oblige]

Britannia would be a prestige project—just like the first time around!

If an invasion succeeded, I guess there’d be a mix of Brittonic and Anglo-Saxon petty lords in OTL England? Totally Celtic in Wales, Scot/Pictland, and Ireland, though. The Dux would of course go for independence eventually, but might get cowed into submission if Soissons is strong enough or Viking attacks begin as OTL.

Well, I could see that being more likely to happen than an invasion south. Yeah, the Visigoths were effectively a paper tiger, but then, considering how long the conquest of Soissons happened in real life, it kinda throws the chance of Soissons doing to the Visigothic Kingdom what Clovis would later do into a bit of doubt.

 

[Flavius Phocas]

I feel I am being redundant in pointing this out everytime this scenario rears it's head here occasionally. However for the so-called "Kingdom of Soissons" to "survive" it would first have to exist. The so-called "Kingdom of Soissons" wasn't actually a unified kingdom and most likely controlled almost none of the territories it's shown to own on maps...if it even existed at all.

You see the "Kingdom of Soissons" is a result of 19th century cartographers mapping out history, finding a region in which we know little about and feeling the need to fill it out anyway based on really vague and unhelpful information. Aegidius and Syagrius were of course real Roman generals who broke away from the Western Empire de facto following Ricimer's powergrab. However aside from being in Gaul we know little about what they actually controlled and owned. The only source we have to help us here is a source from almost 50 years after Syagrius died telling us he was the son of Aegidius and ruled from the city of Soissons...that's it.

He may have only ruled the city of Soissons, and it's really far more likely he was merely one of many generals Roman and non-Roman contesting this vague area of anarchy, maybe not too different from Britannia. Infact it's even possible that the Franks already had some sembelance of control in the region arbritarily assigned to Syagrius before he died.

To make Syagrius' kingdom, city, duchy whatever you want to call it survive you would have to change the original timeline to a large extent by making him actually own the territory maps inaccurately assign to him. By doing this alone it changes the timeline considerably and could butterfly the Franks entirely.

Some people have a bad tendency to take maps from this period at face value, however Late Antiquity is not modern history. Maps don't tell the whole story and can sometimes completely misinform you about the historical situation. Political control and "borders" outside of the Eastern Roman Empire in Europe is considerably vague and unclear during this period.

 

[Avrorrange]

I feel I am being redundant in pointing this out everytime this scenario rears it's head here occasionally. However for the so-called "Kingdom of Soissons" so "survive" it would first have to exist. The so-called "Kingdom of Soissons" wasn't actually a unified kingdom and most likely controlled almost none of the territories it's shown to own on maps...if it even existed at all.

You see the "Kingdom of Soissons" is a result of 19th century cartographers mapping out history, finding a region in which we know little about and feeling the need to fill it out anyway based on really vague and unhelpful information. Aegidius and Syagrius were of course real Roman generals who broke away from the Western Empire de facto following Ricimer's powergrab. However aside from being in Gaul we know little about what they actually controlled and owned. The only source we have to help us here is a source from almost 50 years after Syagrius died telling us he was the son of Aegidius and ruled from the city of Soissons...that's it.

He may have only ruled the city of Soissons, and it's really far more likely he was merely one of many generals Roman and non-Roman contesting this vague area of anarchy, maybe not too different from Britannia. Infact it's even possible that the Franks already had some sembelance of control in the region arbritarily assigned to Syagrius before he died.

To make Syagrius' kingdom, city, duchy whatever you want to call it survive you would have to change the original timeline to a large extent by making him actually own the territory maps inaccurately assign to him. By doing this alone it changes the timeline considerably and could butterfly the Franks entirely.

Some people have a bad tendency to take maps from this period at face value, however Late Antiquity is not modern history. Maps don't tell the whole story and can sometimes completely misinform you about the historical situation. Political control and "borders" outside of the Eastern Roman Empire in Europe is considerably vague and unclear during this period.

I think it’s likely that Aegidius did control significant territories in Gaul considering that he was powerful enough to try and march on Italy after Ricimer killed Majorian.

 

[Lindseyman]

I think it’s likely that Aegidius did control significant territories in Gaul considering that he was powerful enough to try and march on Italy after Ricimer killed Majorian.

Aegidius certainly did however I'm not so sure how much Syagrius actually controlled. However it seems likely that he was at least recognised as the major Romano-Gaulish leader at the time if only because of his father.
(I use Romano-Gaulish rather than Gallo-Roman as the latter always makes me think of Asterix. (What would either Aegidius or Syragius have given for some potion?))

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

While putting the Ostrogoths on a two-front state works, coordination involves invading through the Alps.

...can Justinian loan them some elephants from the Vandal lands?

The Franks were able to do that durring OTL's Gothic War, surely an Exarch of Soissons could replicate the feat (should it conquer southern Gaul)

 

[Francisco Cojuanco]

Assuming Soissons actually controlled that territory in some way, more likely it collapses into something, probably gobbled up by the non-Frankish polities. In any case, expect their successors to proclaim themselves mere administrators for the Emperor in Constantinople - remember many "barbarian" leaders simply saw themselves as in theory agents of Constantinople, even if they acted independently (oddly similar to the relationship of the Pashas in later eras to the Ottomans.)