WI The Columbian Expedition was a complete failure?

Hnau

Banned
Huh, that's very interesting. So perhaps fishermen from Bristol or the Basque country or elsewhere really had re-discovered Newfoundland before Columbus' voyage?
 

Yelnoc

Somebody knew something was out there; that is for sure. I wish I had a copy of 1491 handy; that book briefly covered the subject in its look at the Massachusetts Bay tribes. Has anybody else read it?
 

Hnau

Banned
Yelnoc said:
I wish I had a copy of 1491 handy; that book briefly covered the subject in its look at the Massachusetts Bay tribes. Has anybody else read it?
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I have it. It mentions the fact that there's some evidence for pre-Columbian contact there, but Mann never goes out and gives his opinion on whether or not it did happen.
 

Hnau

Banned
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2007/05/jamestown/charles-mann-text/1

Great article by Charles C. Mann talking about Jamestown and the effect of European colonization on Virginia and the rest of English America. Here, we're starting the Columbian Exchange (Cabralian Exchange?) almost 100 years earlier for the Virginia peoples. One point mentioned here that was interesting is that the tobacco plantations grown by the English settlers devastated the soil of Virginia and forced the natives to migrate further and further to the west in order to feed themselves. The specific use of tobacco helped the English create, well, lebensraum for their colonists. The Spanish won't have Trinidad tobacco to grow and export as a trade good, so that'll give the Amerindians a bit of an edge. But... they are much less politically unified in the 1500s than the 1600s, and they've suffered from disease outbreaks much sooner. And the Spanish will probably be a little more cruel than the English, lets face it.
 

Yelnoc

Hnau said:
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2007/05/jamestown/charles-mann-text/1

Great article by Charles C. Mann talking about Jamestown and the effect of European colonization on Virginia and the rest of English America. Here, we're starting the Columbian Exchange (Cabralian Exchange?) almost 100 years earlier for the Virginia peoples. One point mentioned here that was interesting is that the tobacco plantations grown by the English settlers devastated the soil of Virginia and forced the natives to migrate further and further to the west in order to feed themselves. The specific use of tobacco helped the English create, well, lebensraum for their colonists. The Spanish won't have Trinidad tobacco to grow and export as a trade good, so that'll give the Amerindians a bit of an edge. But... they are much less politically unified in the 1500s than the 1600s, and they've suffered from disease outbreaks much sooner. And the Spanish will probably be a little more cruel than the English, lets face it.
Click to expand...

Excellent article. Mann's point about malaria is particularly relevant to this stage of our timeline. The Carolinas are particularly susceptible to Malaria. So if the Spanish bring Malaria to their Carolina coastal settlement, they could severely damage the native population. However, I think the Spanish are much more likely than the English to pack up shop and leave after not discovering gold. This could potentially give the natives of the eastern seaboard a century, several generations, to build up at least a mild immunity to malaria (and measles, which we have also introduced).

Is there any chance that we could turn the Italian Wars into an even more devastating conflict? Perhaps the delayed introduction of syphilis keeps the European kingdoms fighting for longer, with more devastating results?
 

Socrates

Hnau said:
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2007/05/jamestown/charles-mann-text/1

Great article by Charles C. Mann talking about Jamestown and the effect of European colonization on Virginia and the rest of English America. Here, we're starting the Columbian Exchange (Cabralian Exchange?) almost 100 years earlier for the Virginia peoples. One point mentioned here that was interesting is that the tobacco plantations grown by the English settlers devastated the soil of Virginia and forced the natives to migrate further and further to the west in order to feed themselves. The specific use of tobacco helped the English create, well, lebensraum for their colonists. The Spanish won't have Trinidad tobacco to grow and export as a trade good, so that'll give the Amerindians a bit of an edge. But... they are much less politically unified in the 1500s than the 1600s, and they've suffered from disease outbreaks much sooner. And the Spanish will probably be a little more cruel than the English, lets face it.
Click to expand...

I believe tobacco was planted in Virginia in an attempt to replicate Caribbean style plantations. If the Caribbean hasn't been settled, it's possible the place will be settled by New Englanders using traditional farmsteads moving south, and it may then be politically difficult to impose slave plantations.
 
Beedok

Beedok

Socrates said:
I believe tobacco was planted in Virginia in an attempt to replicate Caribbean style plantations. If the Caribbean hasn't been settled, it's possible the place will be settled by New Englanders using traditional farmsteads moving south, and it may then be politically difficult to impose slave plantations.
Click to expand...

Or Frenchmen, Dutch, Scandinavian or other groups settling.
 
Beedok

Beedok

lokaloki said:
I interested :rolleyes:
I hope, nothing happend and TL is waiting for updates. Or, maybe... Was a new TL created?
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I think it died. :(

The probably is many of us are not knowledgeable enough on the topic. I for one don't really know much about he pre-columbian americas, but I'm happy to provide ideas once I better understand the setting (and butterflies have begun taking effect).
 

Yelnoc

Oh yeah, forgot about this.

I don't know about continuing because I'm about to start school back up. What we really need is more contributors, or at least people bouncing around ideas, however off the wall they may sound.
 

Hnau

Banned
Kaiphranos said:
Quite a few people, by the numbers: did you know that this is the third-most viewed thread in Pre-1900?
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... the hell? You've gotta be kidding me! 610,000 views!? That's impossible! What happened?

This thread has more views than Male Rising or Lands of Red and Gold? It has more views than "The Bloody Man"? How could that be? It has had only ~200 replies, much less than these other epic timelines that have thousands. Who are you people? I can't believe we are on our way to reaching a million views!

My guess is that the thread's title is attracting attention of lurkers and visitors to the site. It has that element of "popular alternate history", in that most people think of this What-If when they think of alternate history. It must be grouped right there with "What if the South won the Civil War?" and "What if the Nazis won World War 2?" It is a part of history that many people understand or think they understand, unlike Male Rising or Lands of Red and Gold which deal in WIs that are much less obvious.

What do you think Beedok, Yelnoc, and others? Should we continue this for the sake of its exploding popularity? I believe the numbers have convinced me.
 

lokaloki

Yelnoc said:
What we really need is more contributors, or at least people bouncing around ideas, however off the wall they may sound.
Click to expand...

I had some ideas about french pirates :rolleyes: I thought about the same POD some time ago.

Hnau said:
Should we continue this for the sake of its exploding popularity?
Click to expand...

I would be glad to see a continuing.
I will try to help but I'm not sure that I can.
 

Yelnoc

Hnau said:
... the hell? You've gotta be kidding me! 610,000 views!? That's impossible! What happened?

This thread has more views than Male Rising or Lands of Red and Gold? It has more views than "The Bloody Man"? How could that be? It has had only ~200 replies, much less than these other epic timelines that have thousands. Who are you people? I can't believe we are on our way to reaching a million views!

My guess is that the thread's title is attracting attention of lurkers and visitors to the site. It has that element of "popular alternate history", in that most people think of this What-If when they think of alternate history. It must be grouped right there with "What if the South won the Civil War?" and "What if the Nazis won World War 2?" It is a part of history that many people understand or think they understand, unlike Male Rising or Lands of Red and Gold which deal in WIs that are much less obvious.

What do you think Beedok, Yelnoc, and others? Should we continue this for the sake of its exploding popularity? I believe the numbers have convinced me.
Click to expand...
Dude, that's intense. Let's do this!
 
Beedok

Beedok

Hnau said:
... the hell? You've gotta be kidding me! 610,000 views!? That's impossible! What happened?

This thread has more views than Male Rising or Lands of Red and Gold? It has more views than "The Bloody Man"? How could that be? It has had only ~200 replies, much less than these other epic timelines that have thousands. Who are you people? I can't believe we are on our way to reaching a million views!

My guess is that the thread's title is attracting attention of lurkers and visitors to the site. It has that element of "popular alternate history", in that most people think of this What-If when they think of alternate history. It must be grouped right there with "What if the South won the Civil War?" and "What if the Nazis won World War 2?" It is a part of history that many people understand or think they understand, unlike Male Rising or Lands of Red and Gold which deal in WIs that are much less obvious.

What do you think Beedok, Yelnoc, and others? Should we continue this for the sake of its exploding popularity? I believe the numbers have convinced me.
Click to expand...

Let's keep at it. This is apparently the most popular thing I've ever contributed too. Obviously I have to up my research standards though.
 
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