WI the Celts establish and Ancient Empire

Yelnoc

The Celts of Europe herded animals, cultivated grains, and had a social structure divided into Rulers, Priests, and Commoners, just like the Medes, Persians, and Aryans. All four of these cultures were members of the Indo-European language group and all of them, with the exception of the Celts, formed large and powerful empires in the last millenium BC. What if they had bucked the trend and followed their linguistic brothers in establishing a Celtic Empire in Europe, let's say centered on Gaul.

How long do you think the Empire would last? What threats would it face, what would cause it to fall, and how would history develop during and after the Celtic Empire?
 

Mirza Khan

Well, at one time, modern-day France, northern Italy, the British Isles, and parts of Iberia and the Northern Balkans all spoke Celtic languages, so I'd say they did pretty well.

If you want a united empire, your best bet IMO is to have Carthage kill off the Romans. Carthage will probably take over all the Greek cities around the Mediterranean, but they were mostly naval-oriented and probably wouldn't press far inland. This gives the Celtic tribes in the interior a chance to pick up some of the more positive aspects of Cartho-Hellenistic culture from the Greco-Carthagenian ports, and eventually they become more urban and civilized. Finally, as Carthagenian power begins to decline, we might see a Celtic group establish a large empire in Gaul or Iberia.
 
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Cuāuhtemōc

Cuāuhtemōc

Banned
Rome needs to be nipped in the bud, perhaps by Carthage during the First Punic War, or if you wish to go earlier on, have that Pyrrhus have better luck fighting the Romans in his little expeditions into southern Italy. Perhaps he strikes up a deal with Carthage and has the island of Sicily divided into respective zones of influence saving him a lot of time and money and troops that could be spent conquering the Romans. You probably need him to have more luck wooing the likes of the Samnites and the Tarentine Greeks to supply him with reinforcements, maybe even have the Gauls of northern Italy to join in and come from the north to attack the Romans.
 

Bottlestein

^ Pyrrhus would be my vote as well. Rome would have to be stopped very early. Is there any chance of pushing other Italian tribes in addition to the Samnites onto them?
 
Cuāuhtemōc

Cuāuhtemōc

Banned
Bottlestein said:
^ Pyrrhus would be my vote as well. Rome would have to be stopped very early. Is there any chance of pushing other Italian tribes in addition to the Samnites onto them?
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Rome at the time was really mostly made up of allies so get them to switch sides and turn on the Romans would help him a lot.
 

Kalan

If you want to destroy Rome as an important power there are several possibilities:
- In 387 BCE the Celts invaded Italy, defeated the Roman army at the Battle of Allia and plundered Rome itself, but the defenders managed to hold the Capitol Hill, but it was according to all sources a close call. So let the Celts conquer and sack the Capitol and there is a good chance that Rome never recovers.
-During the second samnite War the Romans lost several important battles (at one time their army was encircled but instead of annihilating it the samnites allowed them to surrender) and had to sign a humilating peace, but managed to recover. IF the Samnites decidede to press on Rome could have been conquered.

But I am not convinced that a destroyed Rome would be the best way to unify the Gaulish Tribes. If Vercingetorix would manage to defeat the Romans during the Gallic Wars this would not only unify the Gallic Tribes but might still be enought to preserver their independence. If the Celts either win the battle of Avaricum (which was mainly lost due to poor discipline) or kill Julius Caesar during the Battle of Gergovia or don't make the mistake to hide in Alesia but stay mobile. They could evict the Romans from Gallia.
The Roman invasion had greatly weakend the old tribes and the victory would give Vercingetorix enough credibility to form an united Empire.
 

Monty Burns

I don'T think that it's necessary to kill off Rome. What is necessary, though, is the new technology that was mentioned to come from the Carthaginians.

A prerequisite for a great empire are food surplusses. Early introduction of the heavy plough and maybe improved crop rotation could provide the Celts in Northern France and the British isles with substantial food surplusses which will lead to urbanization, increased work specialization and ultimately to larger states, one of which could become an Empire. Both the heavy plough and in particular crop rotation could also be indogenous inventions of the Celts in an ATL.
 

wolf_brother

Banned
I've read somewhere that Northern Europe actually had a pretty intensive trade network, leading the some rather large settlements in parts of OTL France, Germany, etc. The trade network broke down though when the Romans conquered Gaul and basically sealed the rest of Europe off from the world.
 

Faeelin

wolf_brother said:
I've read somewhere that Northern Europe actually had a pretty intensive trade network, leading the some rather large settlements in parts of OTL France, Germany, etc. The trade network broke down though when the Romans conquered Gaul and basically sealed the rest of Europe off from the world.
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Mmm. The oppida are certainly signs of urbanization (and since the Celts built mostly with wood, I suspect they were larger than we tend to think), but you odn't really see coinage and literacy until the 1st century BC. Part of the reason for its spread was the intensification of commerce brought on by the Romans. So...
 

Lysandros Aikiedes

Outside Heunburg in Austria, a small reconstruction of Hallstatt-era Celtic town has been built, and they look to have more in common architecturally with certain Medieval buildings than with mud and wattle huts that were common in Britain during the Iron Age. So I think its fairly safe to say that pre-First Century BCE Celts were reasonably civilized. This selfsame settlement BTW was encircled by a stone-built wall that seems to have been white-washed, as had some of the other buildings, so as to attract merchants that came within sight of it.

Livy is the main source of information for what could have been a Celtic empire during the Sixth Century BCE, when the Bituriges, ruled by their king Ambicatus in Avaricum (modern Bourges), led what may have been militaristic hegemony of tribes that spanned from the Pyrenees, the Rhineland and the Alpine regions.

Celtic coinage was first developed as late as the Fourth Century BCE, given their contacts with the Greeks through the Danubian regions and the port-cities of Marseille, Nice, Empuries and Monaco. Trade would have increased the volume of people in any given area. The so-called Oppida would have been surrounded by what would have began as a tight network of villages that would later grow into a town or city.
 

Stephen

Banned
Monty Burns said:
I don'T think that it's necessary to kill off Rome. What is necessary, though, is the new technology that was mentioned to come from the Carthaginians.

A prerequisite for a great empire are food surplusses. Early introduction of the heavy plough and maybe improved crop rotation could provide the Celts in Northern France and the British isles with substantial food surplusses which will lead to urbanization, increased work specialization and ultimately to larger states, one of which could become an Empire. Both the heavy plough and in particular crop rotation could also be indogenous inventions of the Celts in an ATL.
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The Celts already had Iron malboard ploughs.
http://resourcesforhistory.com/Celtic_Farming_in_Britain.htm

I once posted a thread toying with the idea of spuds finding their way on a storm driven raft to the Celts. But more realistic option could be early adoption of turnips or mangle wurzles which work well in rotation with wheat. Some say turnips are even more nutritiouse and provide a higher calorie per acre density than spuds. People just dont seem to like them so much.
 

Atreus

Rome doesn't necessarily need to be destroyed, but expansion beyond cisalpine gaul must be curtailed at the very least. I think the idea has been floated, but more stalemated punic wars could buy the celts, or at least those in gaul, the time they need. Which isn't all that much, in all probability. Given a couple of generations of political development and unification, probably paired with a military shift that enables them to effectively defend themselves, and a lot of the bedrock for a Celtic empire is there.
 
Space Oddity

Space Oddity

Hell, if Rome gets stunted--the Celts are probably going to wind up the dominant culture of the ancient world. Their (loose-knit, completely decentralized) trade empire stretched at times into Asia. If they start getting organized--WATCH OUT!
 

Lysandros Aikiedes

Just a thought, but an alternate launching ground for a Celtic empire may be Boii-haimoz (Bohemia), the homeland of the rather large and expansive Boii tribe. Of course, the Gallic Arverni in the Third Century BCE would be a safe bet to count on if Rome fails the Second Punic (or not). The leading component of a Celtic federation would need to cement its primacy over its vassal tribes, through intermarriage of its nobles as well as the tribute of hostages. It would need to constantly maintain the support of the Druid and Bardic castes through various donations. From those social sectors could develop a new full-time bureaucracy. From the start, the evolving Celtic society may share similarities with the early Frankish kingdoms IOTL.

The Arverni's path to complete dominance may include the subjugation or vassalization of the Greek colonies such as Massalia, which would give it control of the Mediterranean luxury imports into Gaul, as well as giving the Arverni some permanent diplomatic dialogue with the Mediterranean powers of the day.
 
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Lysandros Aikiedes

The Galatians, composed of the Tectosages, Trocmi and the Tolistobogii, were organized into a unified confederation after their settlement in central Anatolia. Divided into twelve cantons, each led by a chieftain figure whom Strabo designates as a "Tetrarch", each canton or clan sends a group of twenty-five or so representatives to a sacred grove they called a "Drynemeton", which was twenty miles southwest of Ancyra, where they would meet to discuss affairs of state. The beginnings perhaps of a multi-tribal republic.

The Scordisci, centred in Sigidunum (Belgrade) and Tauronum (Zemum) near the Sava River. The Scordisci are mentioned by one historian Andras Mocsy as a "Celtic political creation" rather than an actual tribe, as they ruled over a number of subject Thracian and Illyrian clans in a perhaps feudalistic manner. Their power would be eventually broken IOTL by Roman expansion and the rise of the Getae state under Burebista in the First Century BCE. It is thought that Alexander the Great met with representatives of the Scordsici during his campaigns in the Balkans to negotiate a treaty of non-aggression.
 

Lysandros Aikiedes

The situation of Rome after the Battle of Allia, in which alternately, Brennus of the Senones could have simply laid waste to the city instead of exacting tribute from his Roman captives. If the Senones completely sacked Rome, and harried the surrounding countryside before meeting the mustered forces of Marcus Furius Camilius (if the Roman tradition is to be believed), they might return to Clusium in Etruria, and set up their own state there, after conquering the city. Much like the Boii in northern Italy, the Senones could have largely blended with the local Etruscan and Latin-speaking populace. They could use their superiority in weapon technology to subdue the cities of central Italy and start their own league or federation straddling across Latium and Etruria. This Celto-Latin state, however may be contested by the Hellenic states in the south, notably Syracuse.
 

Axeman

I think the best way to have this happen is to have Rome not exist in the first place. Give Carthage a crushing victory in the Second, or preferably the First Punic War, and throw in Epirus running around Italy. We can have small isolated Greek Colony states like Tarraco, Massilia, and Carthaginians from Spain influence the Celts with Greek Administration. After years and years of influence from Greece, you have an emerging state.
 
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