WI: The Carthaginians colonized West Africa.

WI: The Carthaginians colonized West Africa.

Hanno the Navigator is known to have explored the Gambia and Senegal Rivers and parts of Cameroon in the 4th century BCE. What if the Carthaginians colonized these areas? What would have happen to these colonies, if established, in the long run?

Source
The DK book "Explorers" by Sir Ranulph Fiennes
 

Anaxagoras

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I don't see it. These areas are not agriculturally productive, nor do they sit on any trade routes. What would be the point of colonizing them?
 
Apparently not. But a good POD might be after the first punic war for Carthage to look to africa rather than Europe for colonization.
 
The Senegal region may prove a nice colony. What are the odds when Rome takes Carthage, the residents of this colony are to Carthage what Carthage was for the Phoenicians
 
The Senegal region may prove a nice colony. What are the odds when Rome takes Carthage, the residents of this colony are to Carthage what Carthage was for the Phoenicians

They would be a perplexing scenario, that the Phoenicians just keep relocating forever anytime troubles occur.

On another note Hanno's men after arriving started chasing and killing the local gorilla population. Does anyone think that could effect their population into the present day if that became a norm in this new colony?
 
They would be a perplexing scenario, that the Phoenicians just keep relocating forever anytime troubles occur.

That would be facinating from a civilization perspective - a chain of nations that can trace thier lineage to a number of city-states in Lebanon. Just how many times would they flee and refound thier nations?
 
Aren't there reports that they built "settlements" whilst exploring, and trading with the natives? Of course, these settlements are perhaps at best small trading posts, and might only be seasonably inhabited by the traders.

If they made incontrovertible contact with a civilisation the other side of the Atlantic, that may well be the impetus to permanently establish major cities in West Africa, given the trade winds

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
I think the most likely scenario would be that during the times when Carthage was powerful, they would establish trading posts which would eventually turn into small cities.

However, these cities wouldn't probably last. They would either be overrun by natives (the Carthagianians wouldn't have the technological advantage Europeans had etc.) or, with Carthage losing interest/being attacked, slowly lose their point of existence and slowly depopulated.

The most likely affect past the ancient age would be some lighter skinned Senegalese and some quite nice ruins visited by tourists.
 
They would be a perplexing scenario, that the Phoenicians just keep relocating forever anytime troubles occur.

On another note Hanno's men after arriving started chasing and killing the local gorilla population. Does anyone think that could effect their population into the present day if that became a norm in this new colony?

We don't know if those "gorillai" were what we call today gorillas. They were most likely chimpanzees and Hanno only reached the Senegal-Guinea coast or so.
 
We don't know if those "gorillai" were what we call today gorillas. They were most likely chimpanzees and Hanno only reached the Senegal-Guinea coast or so.

Isn't it likely that they reached the Cape Verde, as this is the logical geographical marker? I thought certain records had been interpreted to understand that they did, but that it was not where they settled/traded?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
All I remember from Hanno's trip is that they saw a "big mountain" and a "big river", I forget which one before.

The "big mountain" is usually identified as Mount Cameroon and the "big river" as either the Niger or the Congo, but that's based solely on faulty logic. That just because whoever wrote the text said "big" it had to be the biggest thing ever in West Africa, as if Hanno had the region completely mapped during repeated travels which we know it wasn't the case.

There is apparently a small mountain range of about 200 m over the sea around Cape Verde, which given Senegal and Mauritania's utter flatness must stick like a sore thumb when you sail around there, and the "big river" could easily be the Senegal or the Gambia, which are bigger than any river in Atlantic Morocco (especially the Gambia, where the bay makes it look even bigger than it really is). I imagine Hanno and co. sailing for months along the Saharian coast and deciding that these two were the biggest things ever because it was the first different thing other than flat desert that they saw in all that time.
 
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However, these cities wouldn't probably last. They would either be overrun by natives (the Carthagianians wouldn't have the technological advantage Europeans had etc.) or, with Carthage losing interest/being attacked, slowly lose their point of existence and slowly depopulated.

Or, they could go the way Carthage went for the Phoenicians-as the mother country/area is overrun, more and more people go to the colonies in west africa. The Phoenician homeland getting overrun didn't magically see the complete decline of the other Phoenician colonies...
 
Or, they could go the way Carthage went for the Phoenicians-as the mother country/area is overrun, more and more people go to the colonies in west africa. The Phoenician homeland getting overrun didn't magically see the complete decline of the other Phoenician colonies...

IMHO their location is not important enough to see this happen UNLESS definite proof exists of the New World, where such settlements would be in the forefront of trade with it.

Otherwise, people would be fleeing to a trading backwater, which is not what Carthage was to Lebanon

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Or, they could go the way Carthage went for the Phoenicians-as the mother country/area is overrun, more and more people go to the colonies in west africa. The Phoenician homeland getting overrun didn't magically see the complete decline of the other Phoenician colonies...

Yes, but prior to the collapse of the Phoenician homeland Carthage had already become the most important trading center in the western Mediterranean.

Who would the Phoenicians trade with in Western Africa? If a colony was established there it would need to export back to the Mediterranean, which would presumably be hostile to Carthaginians.

Relocating would also be disadvantageous to Carthage. The trade routes that allowed Carthage to thrive are all in Europe.

I just don't see an opportunity for the relocation of Carthaginian civilization to western Africa. Colonies there that export to a surviving Carthage, sure. If you want to see a successful Carthaginian colonization of West Africa you need to beat Rome.
 
Yes, but prior to the collapse of the Phoenician homeland Carthage had already become the most important trading center in the western Mediterranean.

Who would the Phoenicians trade with in Western Africa? If a colony was established there it would need to export back to the Mediterranean, which would presumably be hostile to Carthaginians.

Relocating would also be disadvantageous to Carthage. The trade routes that allowed Carthage to thrive are all in Europe.

I just don't see an opportunity for the relocation of Carthaginian civilization to western Africa. Colonies there that export to a surviving Carthage, sure. If you want to see a successful Carthaginian colonization of West Africa you need to beat Rome.

That, or an even more crushing defeat - seeking refuge out of reach of the Romans is just as great an incentive as trade. For an extra flourish, have Hannibal plan this before the Third Punic War - and arange for one of his offspring to lead it.
 
The trade was in the other direction, northwards along the the European coast to Britain. That is the more likely direction Carthaginian migration would be drawn. The mouth of the Tarus River - modern Lisboa was one of several Carthaginian trading knodes. I expect there were others. Is it possible the Carthaginian artistocracy, or part of it, packs it up before the Romans overrun the place and migrate north with their retainers. Perhaps accquiring control of the Cornish tin mines well before the Romans arrive?
 
IMHO their location is not important enough to see this happen UNLESS definite proof exists of the New World, where such settlements would be in the forefront of trade with it.

Otherwise, people would be fleeing to a trading backwater, which is not what Carthage was to Lebanon

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

Well if you want to go with the evidence of Phoenician trading with the people's of the americas...
 
The outposts could have succeeded a little bit, friendly relations with the natives, a few africans taken to the Mediterranean and a medium trade with the locals.

The Punic Wars would make most settlers go back to the Mediterranean, and the last ones, without Carthage's help, would joint the locals or die.
 
Even if the scenario obviously doesn't work, I like the idea of Carthage having its own Carthage-analog (a city to flee to when their enemies advance).
 
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