WI the Carriers had been at Pearl

I'm not sure about that, Lend Lease did give some help to the Soviets but on the whole even without LL Im sure the Soviets could have "got the job done" so to speak....sorry for going off topic just my 2 cents :cool:
 
I completely agree. It would've taken a bit more time, but even without L-L, the Soviets are going to win.

In OTL, less than one percent of Soviet Lend-Lease was supplied in 1941. In 1942, 12 percent of the total was given. That leaves 87 percent to come in two and a half years of fighting. Fighting that came largely after the war turned in the favor of the Soviet Union.
 
Amerigo Vespucci said:
I completely agree. It would've taken a bit more time, but even without L-L, the Soviets are going to win.

In OTL, less than one percent of Soviet Lend-Lease was supplied in 1941. In 1942, 12 percent of the total was given. That leaves 87 percent to come in two and a half years of fighting. Fighting that came largely after the war turned in the favor of the Soviet Union.
Oh, I wasn't trying to imply that the Soviets would lose the whole eastern war because the USA sent less trucks.

I meant that much of '42 was very close run, and that the timetable and hardships endured may have been different.

It wasn't just that the USA delivered some trucks/lorrys. The greater impact was that the USA was committed to delivering a whole bunch more in the near future. This reduced one of STAVKA's major frets. Therefore russian production was skewed more to arms and munitions. In addition, it made some of '42's gambles by Stalin a bit more sure. At a pivotal time in the Patriotic War, this definitely helped.

Without the supplies and promises of more to come, Stalin, or his generals, may have been less willing/able to fight the particular war they did. Maybe Stalingrad would have fallen. Maybe it would have held, but the German 6th army might not have been trapped. Maybe...

My point was that the Russians may have been less successful, or successful later on (say 1946), had the USA been more focused on Japan. I have no doubt that Hitler was going to lose to Russia/UK&Commonwealth/USA in the end.
 

Hyperion

Banned
What if by loosing the Enterprise and Lexington at Pearl, this changes some later events.

If Saratoga is torpedoed in January as it was in OTL, this may see the Wasp getting sent earlier.

Having less carriers means no Doolittle Raid will happen, as Nimitz may consider the plan, however bould, to be too risky.

What if The Japanese conduct themselves similar to OTL.

They send two carriers fleet carriers and a light carrier to Coral Sea. The US, not launching the Doolittle Raid, sends Yorktown, Hornet, and Saratoga to stop them. What in OTL turned out as a draw, turns into a victory, with a third US carrier and escorts available.
 

CalBear

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Hyperion said:
What if by loosing the Enterprise and Lexington at Pearl, this changes some later events.

If Saratoga is torpedoed in January as it was in OTL, this may see the Wasp getting sent earlier.

Having less carriers means no Doolittle Raid will happen, as Nimitz may consider the plan, however bould, to be too risky.

What if The Japanese conduct themselves similar to OTL.

They send two carriers fleet carriers and a light carrier to Coral Sea. The US, not launching the Doolittle Raid, sends Yorktown, Hornet, and Saratoga to stop them. What in OTL turned out as a draw, turns into a victory, with a third US carrier and escorts available.


One thing I didn't think of earlier was the sub attack. That is probably the best bet to butterfly away. The Sara leave a day earlier or later & she never gets attacked. If that happens the loss of the Lady Lex is nullified.

Interesting possibility there.
 
There is an intresting discussion on the Italian campaign in John Grigg's '1943, the Victory that never was'.

The book itself suggests ways in which the Allies may have been able to make their attack on mainland Europe in 1943 rather than 1944 and makes for intresting reading.

I've rread various figures for US supplies to the SU but they seem to average at about 500,000 vehicles, 35,000 radio sets, 380,000 field telephones and a million miles of signal wire. The boots the Red Army marched in were lergely manufactured under Lend-Lease and most of the Soviet aircraft manufacture was possible due to US aluminium and the high octane fuel they used came largely from US supplies.
 
stevep said:
Calbear

While I disagree about the Italian campaigns potential and the wider options in the Med. you are totally right about the naval build-up that would have been possible. With a very large economy slowly recovering from the depression and then boosted by the war in Europe, no blackout or real material shortages US capacity by the 40's was immense. Have heard very few comments about restrictions. Think it was said one reason the Montana class BBs were cancelled was because of a steel shortage at the time. [Although that could have been a political statement and some people simply realised that such ships were largely irrelevant]. Also that the manpower needed for the B29 campaign meant the US decided it was not practical to expand its forces beyond 100 divisions. Those are the only restrictions I have ever heard at all on UD production during this period.

Steve

IIRC, even the US was starting to run short of people to put on the ground by mid 45, the UK having already reached the bottom.
 
US Navy would be in very deep s... well, you know.
...war in Pacific would last a lot longer.
Well, no. Nimitz & U.S. might be better off in the long run (harsh as it seems), with more emphasis on commerce war (subs...), which could conceivably end the war before the end of '44, changing nothing but priority on tankers & basing all subs at Pearl.
Japanese really wanted to get the carriers in Pearl Harbor, and Nagumo called off third wave because he was affraid of their counterattack.
It was nothing like that simple... A 3d wave, presuming it went off, risked unnecessary losses to aircraft & the prospect of abandoning Kido Butai's destroyers en route home, 'cause they didn't have the fuel to make it back.
third wave would destroy magazines, yards and fuel tanks of Pacific Fleet.
Which all presumes there would be a 3d wave, which I deeply doubt. Don't forget, IJN expected it to be a short war, so the need to target facilities like Navy Yard or tank farm wasn't even considered in the planning (as obvious as it seems today)...
No Battle of Coral Sea means the Japanese are very close to invade Australia itself.
Not without help from the Cardassians.
And Midway would probably by captured by Imperial Navy.
Very unlikely. USN could still place 3 CVs at Point Luck 6 June '42. It does mean ferry missions to Malta get butterflied, unless Ranger is used, or an Empire McAlpine-type merchant CV appears sooner (which it could readily have...).
 
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