WI: The C.S.S. Virginia had sunk on march 8, 1862?

During the attack on the U.S.S. Cumberland on March 8th, the Virginia almost did sink, because she had rammed the Cumberland, because she had an iron prow on her bow for ramming union warships. Unfortunately, the prow got stuck inside he Cumberland, and took the Virginia with her. The Virginia only escaped because they were able to pull the bow out.

But what might have happened if the Virginia wasn't able to get free, and sank? What would that have meant for the Union and the Monitor? How might it have changed naval warfare in the Civil war?
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
It means that McClellan and the Army of the Potomac can use the James River as a transport and supply route during the Peninsular Campaign, rather than the less convenient York River. This radically changes the strategic situation in the summer of 1862 and makes it more likely that Richmond will fall.
 
This may turn out worse for the US in the long run.

If the CSA falls early, especially that early, there is no emancipation proclaimation yet. Slavery remains unresolved in the South and some sort of reconciliation may be possible as the bloodshed is not yet extreme. Unless the American Civil War is severe enough to drive home the idea that slavery must die, slavery may endure and the South survives to "fight another day". Perhaps a Second American Civil War occurs in the 1870s or 1880s with semiautomatic weapons and better medical care with more death and destruction than OTL.
 
the ramming

March 8th, 1862,

The C.S.S. Virginia out of Gosport navy yard on the Elizabeth towards Hampton Roads, under the command of flag officer Franklin Buchanan. Facing him are the wooden frigates U.S.S. Congress, U.S.S Minnesota, and U.S.S. Roanoke. Along with wooden sloop of war U.S.S Cumberland.

Cafeteria bypassing the Congress, the Virginia attacks the Cumberland. At exchanging broadsides, than to finish her off flag officer Buchanan gives the order to ram her with her iron prow. I t works, and the Cumberland begins to sink, unfortunately the prow is stuck inside the Cumberland and is taking the Virginia down with her. Buchanan full reverse on the engines, but it doesn't work, the bow of the Virginia is stuck in there real good an d their is no way to get it free. As the Virginia begins to sink the captain orders abandon ship. On the Cumberland her captain gives the same order. As crews from both ships are swimming away they see the Virginia and the Cumberland sinking, both ships are still flying their flags.



To be continued
 
It means that McClellan and the Army of the Potomac can use the James River as a transport and supply route during the Peninsular Campaign, rather than the less convenient York River. This radically changes the strategic situation in the summer of 1862 and makes it more likely that Richmond will fall.

This is nonsensical.

Norfolk was occupied by the Union on 10 May; Virginia was scuttled on 11 May, and the surviving elements of the CSN's James River Squadron retreated from the broad tidal estuary of the lower James past Drewry's Bluff to Richmond. Thereafter the Union was free to use the James as a supply route.

At about this time, the Army of the Potomac had driven back the Confederate rear guards at Williamsburg, and advanced to West Point, at the Pamunkey and Mattapony join to form the York. The southern flank of the AotP was on the Chickahominy River, which runs between the Pamunkey/York and the James and turnd south into the James. During this advance the AotP ignored the area south of the Chickahominy.

The AotP's supply base moved up to West Point, because it was the nearest port, and there was a railroad leading from there to Richmond. McClellan planned to use this railroad to move up superheavy siege guns with which to breach the defenses of Richmond.

Meanwhile, he shifted most of his army south of the Chickahominy to approach Richmond from due east.

Then on 26-27 June, Lee attacked the remaining Union corps north of the Chickahominy and cut the supply line to the Pamunkey. McClellan then retreated southeast to the James, establishing a new supply base there, at Harrison's Landing. The AotP remained at Harrison's Landing from 1 July until August, supplied via the James with no Confederate interference. McClellan however was thoroughly beaten in his own mind and there was no chance of Richmond falling in summer 1862.
 
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I think you would see a delay in the development for the Monitor since it would not have been given a chance to prove itself in battle. Remember it sank shortly afterwards in a storm.

Without Monitors I think the Union would have had more trouble dealing with Confederate ironclads.
 

Flubber

Banned
This is nonsensical.


And for all the reasons you succinctly stated. ;)

The early loss of Virginia/Merrimac will have subtle but noticeable consequences on both Union and slaver naval policies.

Without Monitor's successful defense of the blockading squadron, the Union is less likely to develop the OTL's "monitor fever" in which those vessels were thought to be capable of anything and were built to the near exclusion of all others. The Union will construct a wider range of designs, designs that will include both capable, like New Ironsides, and worthless, like Keokuk and Veruna.

A lack or lessening of "monitor fever" will also mean that bungled operations like the attempt to force Charleston in 1863 may not occur.

Without the near success of Virginia/Merrimac, the slavers are less likely to develop the OTL's "ram fever". The events at Hampton Roads meant every southern seaport, river town, and hen house wanted their own casemate ironclad ram. Far too many construction projects were started spreading what few industrial resources existed beyond the breaking point. Most of that construction was never finished and the relatively few vessels that were completed were less capable than they could have been.

A lack or lessening of "ram fever" means that the slavers will construct fewer ironclads but more capable ones.

Regardless of what happens at Hampton Roads, both the Union and slavers will continue to construct armored vessels as those ships had already proven their worth on the western rivers. Armored ships are here to stay, it's their numbers and design that will change.
 
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Without the near success of Virginia/Merrimac, the slavers are less likely to develop the OTL's "ram fever". The events at Hampton Roads meant every southern seaport, river town, and hen house wanted their own casemate ironclad ram. Far too many construction projects were started spreading what few industrial resources existed beyond the breaking point. Most of that construction was never finished and the relatively few vessels that were completed were less capable than they could have been.

A lack or lessening of "ram fever" means that the slavers will construct fewer ironclads but more capable ones.
The biggest problem with Confederate Ironclads was the lack of suitable engines; too often, the rams would be slow and clumsy. In addition, some rams would have constant engine breakdowns (the CSS Arkansas was plagued by engine problems which led to her scuttling).
A more effective strategy for the Confederates would be to put more emphasis on torpedo (mine) warfare with more capable torpedoes; in addition, they could build more torpedo boats like the Davids. Torpedoes would prove to be a very lethal weapon against the Union navy, since more Union ships were sunk by them IOTL than any other means.
 
The biggest problem with Confederate Ironclads was the lack of suitable engines; too often, the rams would be slow and clumsy. In addition, some rams would have constant engine breakdowns (the CSS Arkansas was plagued by engine problems which led to her scuttling).
A more effective strategy for the Confederates would be to put more emphasis on torpedo (mine) warfare with more capable torpedoes; in addition, they could build more torpedo boats like the Davids. Torpedoes would prove to be a very lethal weapon against the Union navy, since more Union ships were sunk by them IOTL than any other means.

But torpedoes are a very passive weapon, and the Davids have an underwhelming record.

The Confederate navy's record - outside commerce raiding - is not worth the iron that was diverted to armor its ships.
 
march 8th part 2

March 8th, 1862,

On board the Congress, captain Joseph Smith Jr. looks as the both the Cumberland and the Virgina both sink to the bottom of Hampton roads. Shocked that the Cumberland was sunk, but overjoyed at the fact that the Virginia went down with her, saving the rest of the ships in the blockading sqaudron. Unfortunately, their was another problem, after seeing the Cumberland being rammed captain Smith ordered thus Congress be run aground to avoid the same fate, and now she was stuck, but out of danger. It wouldn't be until the next day before the tugs could get the Congress off.

That night the monitor arrived not knowing what happened earlier in the day. In Washington president Lincoln and his cabinet receive the news of what happened in Hampton roads, happy that the Virginia was sunk, but sad about the lose of life on the Cumberland.

To be continued.
 

Flubber

Banned
The biggest problem with Confederate Ironclads was the lack of suitable engines...


Even if you handwave away the engine bottleneck, the slavers didn't have the ability to properly armor all the hulls they laid down.

Avoiding "ram fever" and concentrating on fewer hulls which then can be properly armored and receive the few suitable engines available would help.

A more effective strategy for the Confederates would be to put more emphasis on torpedo (mine) warfare with more capable torpedoes...

Impossible given those mines, and their control systems, water-proofing requirements. Mines, whether contact or remote detonated required materials the slavers could not produce and must import. To remain effective, mines of the period also required constant maintenance again requiring materials in even shorter supply than steam engines.

... build more torpedo boats like the Davids.

Which had a singularly poor record. Of all the spar torpedo attacks attempted during the war only the slaver's Hunley, which foundered, and Cushing's attack on Albemarle can be considered a "success". Dozens of vessels, large and small, carried spar torpedoes for little benefit.

Torpedoes would prove to be a very lethal weapon against the Union navy, since more Union ships were sunk by them IOTL than any other means.

The Union lost more warships to the weather and mishandling than in combat with slaver forces.
 
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