WI the Byzantine Empire survived into the 20th century?

Blair152

Banned
No Fourth Crusade. It is my opinion that the end of the Byzantines was the Fourth Crusade, and not the Ottoman siege of Constantinople. If the Fourth Crusade could be stopped, then the Byzantines would be in a better position to stop the Turks, as instead of Balkanized Despotites and Crusader Occupiers all fighting over the remains of the Empire, there would be a unified Greco-Christian state to stand against the Turks. Also without the Western looting the economy would be in much better shape as well. This might also mean longer lasting Crusader states in the Levant, as the Byzantine occupation robbed them of their men, significantly weakening them, and this too might prove an effective counter balance to the Turks, as they would have to fight the Christians on two fronts. The Byzantines might never regain Eastern Anatolia, but the Turks probably wouldn't be strong enough to enter Europe either. In short, HUGE butterflies.
Any POD that would have the Byzantine Empire survive into the 20th century would have to begin earlier than 1300. 1271, the year of the Fourth Crusade, which broke the rubber band that was the Byzantine Empire, would have to have the Crusaders being rich enough to pay the
Venetians. That's how the Latin Empire came into being in the first place.
The Venetians talked the Crusaders into taking out their competition, which was the Byzantine city of Zara. Taking Constantinople was just the
icing on the cake.
 
no, I meant how the Byzantines liked to kill Jews and heretics and pretty much anyone (citizen or not) who looked at them funny.

Not really. The Empire had occasional bursts of religious persecution, but in general, it was rather more tolerant than most medieval Christian states. One of the reasons that the Crusaders were so appalled at Roman Constantinople was the fact that (horror of horrors) it contained mosques and synagogues.

The best TL I can think of on this subject is Isaac's Empire, by Basileus Giorgios. Look it up. And you will have your answers.

Thank you, sir!

Any POD that would have the Byzantine Empire survive into the 20th century would have to begin earlier than 1300. 1271, the year of the Fourth Crusade, which broke the rubber band that was the Byzantine Empire, would have to have the Crusaders being rich enough to pay the
Venetians. That's how the Latin Empire came into being in the first place.
The Venetians talked the Crusaders into taking out their competition, which was the Byzantine city of Zara. Taking Constantinople was just the
icing on the cake.

Umm, you're only sixty seven years out. The Fourth Crusade was in 1204, and the Latin Empire lasted until 1261. I do like the description of the Empire as being like a "rubber band" though, it's very apt.
 

elkarlo

Banned
So you're essentially saying that they would replace the Ottomans as the "sick man of Europe?" That is essentially what they would most likely end up being as they would be sharing all of the same issues that plagued the Ottoman Empire into the early 20th century with many creeds, cultures and religions a majority of whom refused to partake in any form of mass industrialization along with many aristocracy that shared the similar sentiments and refused to relinquish power for reform. Another question that was largely affect the aforementioned would be how the borders would end up being by the time the 1930s rolls around?:confused:

But there would be huge differences in Euro relations. The Ottomans were an alien invading force, while the Byzantines were there the whole time, and wouldnt be viewed as a major aggressor. Think how different Spanish, AH and Russian hist would be different, as a lot of what they did was in reaction to Ottoman expansion.
 

Blair152

Banned
But there would be huge differences in Euro relations. The Ottomans were an alien invading force, while the Byzantines were there the whole time, and wouldnt be viewed as a major aggressor. Think how different Spanish, AH and Russian hist would be different, as a lot of what they did was in reaction to Ottoman expansion.
No Battle of Lepanto.
 
you know, I did a map on this theme a while back - although it's WWI rather than WWII...

Bruce

ByzantiumConvergent.png
 
Survivng the fourth crusade is actulley the POD im using for my story of the crew of a Byzantine Airship during WW1 (and this WW1 is during the 1890's)...Its kinda awesome, theres Dutch and Lithuanian Empires, and a Neo Teutonic order
 

Keenir

Banned
Admittedly im no expert on Byzantine culture/beliefs, but didn't almost every country back then do something against their jewish populations, whether it was expelling them, killing them, sanctioning them, etc?

pretty much, yes.

but by that logic, there was nothing special about WW2 Germany, because every country back then had anti-semitic policies.
 

Keenir

Banned
But there would be huge differences in Euro relations. The Ottomans were an alien invading force, while the Byzantines were there the whole time, and wouldnt be viewed as a major aggressor. Think how different Spanish, AH and Russian hist would be different, as a lot of what they did was in reaction to Ottoman expansion.

wouldn't be viewed...what?

you want to tell the Bulgars and Arabs that the Byzantines aren't aggressors? or the Egyptians, though they won't believe you.
 
wouldn't be viewed...what?

you want to tell the Bulgars and Arabs that the Byzantines aren't aggressors? or the Egyptians, though they won't believe you.

Western Europeans won't care about the Bulgars, [1] much less the Arabs and Egyptians: indeed, kicking Muslim ass is likely to be considered in a positive light by western Europeans, especially Iberians.

Anyone, if we want a historical analogy, I think the Habsburgs work better than the Ottomans. Think about it: claims to heritage of Rome - "Empire of Rome in the East"/Holy Roman Empire, unifying religion - Orthodoxy/Catholicism, multinational state, probably conservative, probably including Muslims (Anatolia/Bosnia), and ruling over a historical state founded by steppe nomads with a tendency to revolt (Bulgaria/Hungary)...

Bruce

[1] I fail to remember how OTL Russian expansion vs. Poland & Sweden turned Europe against Czarist Russia, and those countries shared western Europe's Catholicism or Protestantism, unlike Orthodox Bulgaria.
 
pretty much, yes.

but by that logic, there was nothing special about WW2 Germany, because every country back then had anti-Semitic policies.

True, and Anti-semitism should never be justified. However at the same time I don't think it's proper criticism of the Byzantines considering that almost every medieval country did the same thing or went even further with their anti-Semitic policies.
 
Last edited:
Survivng the fourth crusade is actulley the POD im using for my story of the crew of a Byzantine Airship during WW1 (and this WW1 is during the 1890's)...Its kinda awesome, theres Dutch and Lithuanian Empires, and a Neo Teutonic order


Dude, that sounds awesome, post the fuck out of it. I want to see it.
 
Its quite easy IMO to get surviving Byzantine Empire with a POD at the Fourth Crusade or earlier, but the butterflies on European politics would be immense (while the other European states won't like the fact that the Byzantines are Orthodox, they are very unlikely to produce the sort of freakout in Europe that the Ottomans did. This means that the Hapsburgs and other nearby powers will develop very differently).
 
But there would be huge differences in Euro relations. The Ottomans were an alien invading force, while the Byzantines were there the whole time, and wouldnt be viewed as a major aggressor. Think how different Spanish, AH and Russian hist would be different, as a lot of what they did was in reaction to Ottoman expansion.

Most likely, there would be no AH.
 
Could you imagine the following as members of the Triple Entente?: Britain, France, and Byzantium. The Central Powers: Germany, Italy, Austria-Hungary, and the Ottomans. They do make great overstuffed foot
stools. :D

Did you read my post at all? Specifically the part about the butterflies?

Also, how much do you know about the Ottomans? Their early history? If you do, then you should know that they started out as one of many minor states on the Byzantine frontier in western Anatolia. A strong, surviving Byzantine Empire would have to possess Anatolia. Therefore, no Ottomans.

The other ones are sketchy at best. A war between the Germans and Byzantines is very possible, and would be quite interesting, but the Germans will NOT be the Nazi Germans of OTL. A centralized HRE is the most likely possibility IMO.

@Basileus Giorgios: You're welcome, though I admit to not having seen many other surviving Byzantine TLs.
 
Top