Greenville
Banned
If the British Army is captured at Dunkirk and the British open negotiations, what are the terms of a peace agreement?
If the British Army is captured at Dunkirk and the British open negotiations, what are the terms of a peace agreement?
Britain would probably lose some of its colonies to Italy; indeed, what did Italy want? Malta? What else?If the British Army is captured at Dunkirk and the British open negotiations, what are the terms of a peace agreement?
That was on the 28th, the usual POD is on the 24th when Hitler affirmed the Halt Order and ordered a pull out of bridgeheads over the Aa Canal would mean 0 troops get out and the War Cabinet Crisis going very differently. Churchill won the debate because the perimeter was able to be set up on the 26th, with Hitler striking down the Halt Order no perimeter is set up at all, Dunkirk is taken before the BEF even gets there, and they are surrounded and totally wiped out. In that case Churchill either asks for terms or loses a vote of No Confidence."If this long island story of ours is to end at last, let it end only when each one of us lies choking in his own blood upon the ground."
Was the agreed Cabinet decision on the 28th of May 1940
Less than 8000 troops had been evacuated at this point, the Belgian Army had just surrendered.
A substantial part -- probably half if not more -- of the Royal and French navies go over to Germany
At this point, the British politely walk out in their very British way, and don't really hear what else the Germans had to say. Because, really, Germany is in no position to enforce a Versailles equivalent on the British so long as the Royal Navy stands, indeed, the Nazis would be hard pressed to push any terms beyond White Peace...
That was on the 28th, the usual POD is on the 24th when Hitler affirmed the Halt Order and ordered a pull out of bridgeheads over the Aa Canal would mean 0 troops get out and the War Cabinet Crisis going very differently. Churchill won the debate because the perimeter was able to be set up on the 26th, with Hitler striking down the Halt Order no perimeter is set up at all, Dunkirk is taken before the BEF even gets there, and they are surrounded and totally wiped out. In that case Churchill either asks for terms or loses a vote of No Confidence.
In terms of OP's question the terms could only be that Britain has no restrictions placed on it (no reparations, military restrictions, lost primary territory), prisoners exchanged, German future treaties with the continentals recognized, governments in exile expelled, probably no German offensive units based in conquered countries (naval, air, major armor forces) just occupation units. Perhaps German WW1 colonies held by Britain returned, maybe Malta to Italy. Definitely recognition of any colonial transfers from France or other European imperial powers.
You're misunderstanding. I didn't say they would have totally capitulated in 4 days, just that there would be no mistake that they wouldn't be getting out, even 8000 men, by the 28th. IOTL on the 28th it was clear they'd be getting out tens of thousands of men, enough for the nucleus of a new army, ITTL by the 28th it would be clear the BEF was doomed, just a question of how many days until they surrendered after being cut off from the coast. Given the Belgian surrender on the 28th that would be the final nail in their coffin. Hitler's trustworthiness wouldn't matter when Churchill is removed by the Halifax coalition, which still dominated the Tory party as of May 1940.I doubt that The BEF would have been compelled to Surrender in 4 days, and the decision to fight on was made before any substansial evacuation had taken place.
Hitler could not be relied upon to keep any agreement rendering negotiations pointless.
You're misunderstanding. I didn't say they would have totally capitulated in 4 days, just that there would be no mistake that they wouldn't be getting out, even 8000 men, by the 28th. IOTL on the 28th it was clear they'd be getting out tens of thousands of men, enough for the nucleus of a new army, ITTL by the 28th it would be clear the BEF was doomed, just a question of how many days until they surrendered after being cut off from the coast. Given the Belgian surrender on the 28th that would be the final nail in their coffin. Hitler's trustworthiness wouldn't matter when Churchill is removed by the Halifax coalition, which still dominated the Tory party as of May 1940.
What I would think would be in the peace deal:...
Huge reparations in cash and gold. By 1940 the British hadn't actually incurred that much damage on Germany, but a victor can demand what he wants, and the Germans wouldn't necessarily have to demand an amount that would cripple Britain. They could ask for entirely reasonable financial reparations and benefit tremendously from them because of the size of the British economy. That enables even larger shipments from the USSR until the war with them starts.
....
In summary, the Germans were terribly sore about Versailles and their peace terms would be brutal. It's been said on here that asking an enemy what his terms are is effectively the same thing as agreeing to those terms. It makes sense; when a nation sues for peace it is essentially placing itself on its knees before the victor and asking what they must do to end the war. The UK in 1940 might have been in a position to refuse the German terms, but there would have been at least some public backlash as many people would view the German terms as fair, compared to their own personal risk of getting bombed. And the Germans could always have reacted with poison gas against the recalcitrant British.
1648 borders for France mean for France the loss of Southern Lorraine, a bit of Barrois and Strasbourg.Britain would probably lose some of its colonies to Italy; indeed, what did Italy want? Malta? What else?
Also, Hitler would probably demand 1648 borders for France but might be willing to compromise if this means getting Britain to make peace. At the very least, though, Hitler will insist on acquiring and annexing Alsace-Lorraine.
1648 borders for France mean for France the loss of Southern Lorraine, a bit of Barrois and Strasbourg.
And Franche-Comté, Artois, Roussillon, French Flanders, Savoy and Nice. Plus Montbéliard and the Comtat Venaissin.
Overall, weird borders.

-- but Germany is led by Adolf Hitler, and Hitler is not going to settle for a white peace after a year of war and all that German blood spilled in various countries he invaded. I suspect he would have wanted to punish the British in a Versailles-like fashion, and if they said no or began to look at their watches and quietly retreat towards the door, then Hitler would have threatened them with massive bombing raids or gas warfare, along the lines of Rotterdam. The British would have then chosen to weather that storm, knowing they could do so.
In other words, the Germans by their spectacular (and highly fortunate) victory have simply managed to escape from a small cage into a bigger one.So to edit down to the key points. One that a victor can demand what he wants and that the British were in the same position as the Germans at Versailles the answer is no to both. A conqueror may be able to demand what they want but Germany has not conquered Britain here and still remains in no position to conquer Britain unless it commits to actually finding out just how dreadfully the Sea Mammal That Laughs at Sensible Planning would perform. The Germans know they still face British superiority at sea even with the Italians on board and this also gives Vichy a stick to negotiate with for as long the British stop trying to sink their ships they can always threaten to send them off to join the English (obligatory hawk spit) and that will put an outright victory even further beyond Hitler's grasp.
...and which London will adjudge to be outrageous and provocative.Thus a peace offer even by Hitler will be something he adjudges to be reasonable and conciliatory.
Very much this. As far as the bad man is concerned everything up to this point is mere prologue to the real war.Also remember Hitler is on a timetable, he really wants to invade the USSR before they get dug in on their new frontiers so fighting a war against Britain must be something that can reasonably concluded by May 1941 because after that the focus of resources is east.
That's true, but the time he buys while having access to open markets and a lack of a western front puts the Germans in a far stronger position than historically.Note that one can never expect Hitler to keep deals