WI the British had finished the job in Africa in 1940

Instead of sending forces to Greece, Churchill gives priority to North Africa and O'Connor has enough forces to finish off the Italians and seize all Italian territories in North Africa.
Would it be possible to force Italy out of the war earlier? Seize control of French north African areas earlier? D Day in 43? Or would the Germans just keep a light watch on the Med coast and the extra German (and Italian) ressources make a difference in Russia...

Ops, that 1940 in the title should have been 1941....
Gotta start reading what I type before posting it...
 
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Instead of sending forces to Greece, Churchill gives priority to North Africa and O'Connor has enough forces to finish off the Italians and seize all Italian territories in North Africa.
Would it be possible to force Italy out of the war earlier? Seize control of French north African areas earlier? D Day in 43? Or would the Germans just keep a light watch on the Med coast and the extra German (and Italian) ressources make a difference in Russia...

Ops, that 1940 in the title should have been 1941....
Gotta start reading what I type before posting it...

Try searching "Operation Compass successful".
 
Well this would pretty much kill any possibility of Germany sending troops to get trapped in Africa, so the divisions that composed the Afrika Korps would be available for future operations.

Sensibly the Regia Marina doesn't have the power projection to contest the Mediterranian, the Kreigsmarine doesn't nearly have it to contest the Royal Navy, so the only sensible option is to stand on the defensive and focus on Russia.

One possible effect is we may not see an Operation Torch so to say and Vichy France may maintain Algeria. Churchill probably would sieze Tunisia as a base against Italy though.

Seems to me the ball would be in Churchill's court if he could pull off a landing in Italy in 1941. If not you'd see a joint US/UK attempt in late 1942 I'd imagine.
 
5000 Australians wouldn't have been captured in Greece and Crete and when nth Africa is cleaned up would have been available in S.E.A. in late 41 to fight the Japanese.
 
5000 Australians wouldn't have been captured in Greece and Crete and when nth Africa is cleaned up would have been available in S.E.A. in late 41 to fight the Japanese.

Yep, no North Africa/Med theatre means most of OTL's Eighth Army and Desert Air Force could have been sent east to defend Malaya. With better equipment and more competent generals (Monty of Malaya anyone?! ;) ) the British could well have beaten the Japanese in Malaya. Something that would have huge implications for the War and the post war world.
 
5000 Australians wouldn't have been captured in Greece and Crete and when nth Africa is cleaned up would have been available in S.E.A. in late 41 to fight the Japanese.

I guess it depends on whether you prefer 4 years in a German prison camp or 3 years fighting in a New Guinea jungle or worse end up a POW of the Japanese.
 
I guess it depends on whether you prefer 4 years in a German prison camp or 3 years fighting in a New Guinea jungle or worse end up a POW of the Japanese.


I don't think anyone would really want to fight in PNG at that point in time!

Having an extra 5k battle hardened Australian troops in PNG or nearby would have made for a huge difference in all sorts of ways.
 
Yep, no North Africa/Med theatre means most of OTL's Eighth Army and Desert Air Force could have been sent east to defend Malaya. With better equipment and more competent generals (Monty of Malaya anyone?! ;) ) the British could well have beaten the Japanese in Malaya. Something that would have huge implications for the War and the post war world.

If Operation Compass had succeeded then I think Wavell and O'Conner would have been regarded as the military geniuses with the midas touch.

Monty would have remained in England in comparative obscurity drilling his troops and inspecting their assets while they were showering.

If North Africa had been cleared then the Royal Navy would have more ships available for the Indian Ocean in 1941. However with the US still neutral it is difficult to know what the British could have done alone after capturing Tripoli. They couldn't invade Greece or Sicily without being humiliated (remember Kos in 1943).
 
Axis

Both sides would have more forces. The best way for the Brits to use them would be to "liberate" French North Africa, but then an assault on European shores would be unlikely. More interesting is what the Axis would do with all the ressources. Whe are talking of a lot of German Aircraft (no point in attacking Malta if there are no convoys going to Africa), a German PzK and a Full Italian Army* (with a bunch of MC202 and SM79 for air support) avaible for Russian Ops. Could they hold the flanks of the 6th Army on the fateful winter of 1942?
Hell, give Army Group South enough Panzers from the start and Guderian could have driven straight to Moscow instead of rushing south to help Von Rundsted destroy the russian south wing...

* that wouldn't be sent to Africa as sucessive waves of reinforcements...
 
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CalBear

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5000 Australians wouldn't have been captured in Greece and Crete and when nth Africa is cleaned up would have been available in S.E.A. in late 41 to fight the Japanese.

True.

The Reich would also have had around 400,000 more troops available for Barbarossa and for the 1942 Southern Offensive.

This was the big POD I uses in Anglo/American
 

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It had 400,000 troops in Greece?

Africa.

The Axis lost more troops if you include PoW in Operation Torch than it did in the the debacle at Stalingrad. You throw in the other losses that don't happen if the Axis writes off Africa and you wind up with over 400,000 fully equipped troops.
 

Sior

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If Operation Compass had succeeded then I think Wavell and O'Conner would have been regarded as the military geniuses with the midas touch.

Monty would have remained in England in comparative obscurity drilling his troops and inspecting their assets while they were showering.

If North Africa had been cleared then the Royal Navy would have more ships available for the Indian Ocean in 1941. However with the US still neutral it is difficult to know what the British could have done alone after capturing Tripoli. They couldn't invade Greece or Sicily without being humiliated (remember Kos in 1943).

Your talking about Monty here not Patton!
 
Africa.

The Axis lost more troops if you include PoW in Operation Torch than it did in the the debacle at Stalingrad. You throw in the other losses that don't happen if the Axis writes off Africa and you wind up with over 400,000 fully equipped troops.

Of course they'd probably need to station a lot of those in Italy and France, enough to fend of a British invasion of Sicily or the south of France in 1941 or even more likely, an Anglo-American invasion in 1942.
 
Most of the Axis troops lost in Tunisia wouldn't have been available for the 1942 campaign against the USSR as they were sent as the response to Operation Torch but it would have left something more for the attempted link up with the Stalingrad pocket.


Wonder if Vichy North Africa might have gone over without fighting if the Axis are already off the continent?
 
Africa.

The Axis lost more troops if you include PoW in Operation Torch than it did in the the debacle at Stalingrad. You throw in the other losses that don't happen if the Axis writes off Africa and you wind up with over 400,000 fully equipped troops.

You're including the Italians, right? Why would Mussolini send that many men?
 
Any italian troops not deployed in North Africa will end up deployed to defend Sicily and Southern Italy.

It's also worth considering what happens in Crete. Butterlies could easily mean that it doesn't fall, as the entire Greek deployment will be changed if they don't have the British backing them up - they'll know they can't deploy forward to defend their Albanian conquests. Moreover, without the British deployment to Greece, the Germans may not even invade.
 
Moreover, without the British deployment to Greece, the Germans may not even invade.

They probably will, they'll know that if they leave Greece alone that their flank is pretty badly exposed and that British involvement is still very likely, especially with Africa being wrapped up.
 
Instead of sending forces to Greece, Churchill gives priority to North Africa and O'Connor has enough forces to finish off the Italians and seize all Italian territories in North Africa.
Would it be possible to force Italy out of the war earlier? Seize control of French north African areas earlier? D Day in 43? Or would the Germans just keep a light watch on the Med coast and the extra German (and Italian) ressources make a difference in Russia...

Ops, that 1940 in the title should have been 1941....
Gotta start reading what I type before posting it...

AdA

As said there has been some discussion of this before and the Operation Compass TL goes into some details on this. There are two versions as the author restarted it but the 1st is probably better for you as it goes on longer.

There would be a lot more Axis forces but also a hell of a lot more British/Commonwealth/Empire forces. Most of all it gives a very good chance of giving Britain a big breather rather than desperately dashing from crisis to crisis. Almost certain to see Britain hold Malaya and Burma which will shorten the war in the east significantly, ease Britain's economic problems a lot and probably have big butterflies in the post-war situation in the east.

The balance of forces in Europe probably means that Germany falls about the same time or a bit earlier but could see a bit weaker Russia as it might have to fight even more Axis forces. Alternatively you might see Germany pushing even deeper into Russia and suffering bigger defeats so collapsing earlier.

Steve
 
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