Who knows, with a POD that far back you could have migrations of other peoples that displace the nords so they never even have a chance to explore.-snip
Who knows, with a POD that far back you could have migrations of other peoples that displace the nords so they never even have a chance to explore.-snip
Why would they ever exist at all? Eurasian farmers would have perfectly acceptable crops available, even if they were less ideal than the package they encountered in OTL. Would you rather grow your grain now, or some stupid plant that your grandchildren's grandchildren's grandchildren could enjoy?Looking at it from another angle:
Next to all the Inka gold, the one thing Columbus really discovered were maize (corn), potatoes and tobacco. Of course he didn't just stumble upon them. He either observed the natives or was thought by them. Without natives, how long would it take for a fortunate settler to think: Hey, funny leaves. I wonder if I roll them up, light them and suck in the smoke.... Will it kill me or just get me high?
So assuming the European settlers and explorers have to find out for themselves what corn, tomatoes, potatoes, cotton and tobacco are good for? How long until fries and ketchup become a standard staple?
And would corn be such a big crop it is today, even in Russia, or would it play second fiddle behind quinoa?
Alright, that is a fair point. It really isn't impossible for no migration, it just seems unlikely. I guess what I was trying to say is using a ASB would allow you to still have Europe is as the same as Columbus time if you wanted to see specifically how he and the Europe of that time would react to an empty America.
Talk about massacring butterflies. All it would take is one person or even one animal to do something different to cause changes that would spread out across Asia, leading to butterflies into Europe. To have nothing change in Asia, which would lead to nothing changing elsewhere is simply ASB.-snip
The difference in time between their migration and them dying of disease earlier leading to butterflies as other tribes react differently too it. Couldn't the difference be in years considering how far back the POD is?What's the difference between a society dying and same society going away and not interacting with Europe for over a millennia? The answer is very little by the society.
We know the Polynesians reached the Americas and came back because of the sweet potato, an American crop, which Polynesians refer to as kumara (in Andean languages the crop is often called kumar or some variant thereof). Furthermore, Polynesians always voyaged with the chief (ariki) and about fifty of the most healthy men and women. All Polynesian voyages were intended to create a viable colony, and that means having both men and women.Then there's the Polynesians. We may be pretty sure that Polynesians reached the Americas. But did they make it back? Were these not, in all likelihood, a bunxh of all-male sailors who got blown off course and were then stranded in a place they did not know? It's been argued that such 'castaways' were from time to time adopted into the Native American peoples of the new lands they had unintentianally reached... but in this ATL, there is no native population. So if we're talking about a bunch of all-male sailors blown off course... they will last for exactly one generation. Or they build a new vessel and try to get back home. They may succeed. hey may not. But if OTL Polynesians made it to America and back in this fashion, there is nothing to indicate that this led to any significant Polynesian migration to the Americas. Far more likely, the only Polynesians to reach the New World were stranded there, and their unintended trip was one-way.
No matter what Arab legends might have you, West Africans lacked a capacity to sail across the Atlantic. If they did, Cape Verde would have been injbited early on.What about the Malians? They might have reached the Americas.
That makes sense. Anyway, I said they might have reached the Americas, not that they did, but they might have.If they did, Cape Verde would have been injbited early on.
We know the Polynesians reached the Americas and came back because of the sweet potato, an American crop, which Polynesians refer to as kumara (in Andean languages the crop is often called kumar or some variant thereof).
Furthermore, Polynesians always voyaged with the chief (ariki) and about fifty of the most healthy men and women. All Polynesian voyages were intended to create a viable colony, and that means having both men and women.
I don't think corn would ever be a domesticated crop... it started out from a rather tiny grain plant that took a looooooong time to get up to a decent size. The native Americans did it in OTL because they didn't have anything better to work with. Without natives to do that, I can't imagine why European settlers would bother with it, when they already have wheat, barley, and oats. As for potatoes... it might be used, people seem to have a natural inclination to try out tubers. But even if it does happen, the Europeans will be starting from scratch with it...Looking at it from another angle:
Next to all the Inka gold, the one thing Columbus really discovered were maize (corn), potatoes and tobacco. Of course he didn't just stumble upon them. He either observed the natives or was thought by them. Without natives, how long would it take for a fortunate settler to think: Hey, funny leaves. I wonder if I roll them up, light them and suck in the smoke.... Will it kill me or just get me high?
So assuming the European settlers and explorers have to find out for themselves what corn, tomatoes, potatoes, cotton and tobacco are good for? How long until fries and ketchup become a standard staple?
And would corn be such a big crop it is today, even in Russia, or would it play second fiddle behind quinoa?
The Polynesians sailing to South America is by far the most plausible one. So we have a fairly clear linguistic connection between Polynesian and Andean languages with regards to this one crop, which also happens to be native to the Andes. Clearly, the word kumara could not have floated across the ocean. So we have three options:There are multiple competing theories on the subject. It is in fact possible that the sweet potato floated across the ocean, so to speak.
Hawaii maintained contact with Tahiti and other southern islands for centuries after contact despite the distance being more than 4000 kilometers, so it is fully possible more canoes would follow. Also, consider that both New Zealand and Easter Island were settled by multiple canoes--which could add up to a settling population in the hundreds.Is one such vessel reaching the Americas truly enough for a viable colony? One nasty disease and it can be all over.
I think the best you could for is the lack of major civilizations like the Mayan, Inca, Aztec, and Mississippi Valley Civilizations. There would be always natives.
Looking at it from another angle:
Next to all the Inka gold, the one thing Columbus really discovered were maize (corn), potatoes and tobacco. Of course he didn't just stumble upon them. He either observed the natives or was thought by them. Without natives, how long would it take for a fortunate settler to think: Hey, funny leaves. I wonder if I roll them up, light them and suck in the smoke.... Will it kill me or just get me high?
So assuming the European settlers and explorers have to find out for themselves what corn, tomatoes, potatoes, cotton and tobacco are good for? How long until fries and ketchup become a standard staple?
And would corn be such a big crop it is today, even in Russia, or would it play second fiddle behind quinoa?
So, does mean a thread-move to the ASB section? I admit the whole scenario relies alot on handwaving.