WI: The Allies drive deep into Germany in WWI

Eurofed

Banned
And many more quotes about fantasies about Nazi Germany being able to eradicate Poles and Czechs to pick from, having "sane demands" and so on.

I repeat, I feel slighted. You don't just miss all the quotes about the "fantasies" of mine about Rome being able to "eradicate" Germanics (something that should warm your heart), Persians, Arabs, you even miss all the ones where I happily make the Americas Yankee from top to bottom. Czechs and Poles are peanuts in comparison. Why do you fixate on the least ambitious of my geopolitical schemes ? I know that according to your worldview, Warsaw is the center of the world, but still...

Seriously, when the difference between "extermination" and "cultural assimilation" started to get lost on you ? Because there is a trivial difference between dying and learning a different language, you know.
 

Xanth

Banned
I repeat, I feel slighted.
You posted that you hate Poland and are Germanophile, really why deny it?
Plus, I got sick of people mistaking me for an unreasoning Germanophile and wanted to throw out a tiny counterproof.

But I still hate Poland, so they cannot ever get Posen :p


So far, I did not use ASB population transfers for the scenario (otherwise, I would return Pomerania and Silesia to Germany, whose lack is another geopolitical sore eye as far as this Germanophile is concerned).

Damn, this gave me an irresistible urge to give another instant language course and loyalty zap for Germany to western Poles and thus undo the

As an Europhile and Germanophile, this is the part that I can't really suffer about Valkyrie discussions,

Anyway-I have seen many revisionists and know their methods and signs, so your attempts to smuggle pro-Nazi revisionism in the threads, while perhaps not evident to common posters is really obvious to somebody who studied modern revisionist thought.
 

Eurofed

Banned
You posted that you hate Poland and are Germanophile, really why deny it?

And of course Germanophilia is a surefire sign of being pro-Nazi. :rolleyes:

Anyway-I have seen many revisionists and know their methods and signs, so your attempts to smuggle pro-Nazi revisionism in the threads, while perhaps not evident to common posters is really obvious to somebody who studied modern revisionist thought.

Darn. And to think that I expected my uber-Ameriwank urges and my staunch pro-Zionist stance would disguise me perfectly. :rolleyes:
 

Xanth

Banned
And of course Germanophilia is a surefire sign of being pro-Nazi. :rolleyes:
Why, they lost. If only they were smarter, right? Anyway it's good that you don't deny now your racist attitude to Slavic nations and hatred for Poland.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Why, they lost. If only they were smarter, right? Anyway it's good that you don't deny now your racist attitude to Slavic nations and hatred for Poland.

It is obvious by now it would be utterly wasted bandwidth with you. I could tell that the actions of the likes of you to poison that wonderful accomplishment of human cooperation and collective scholarship that is Wikipedia with hateful lies has done a non-trivial part to make me think that Polish nationalism may be one of the most obnoxious European contemporary ones ever, which is as much as I can get close to "hate Poland".
 
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Conspiracy theory,

Germans are very wronged people with national artificial identity imposed on them by Pan-German nationalists in XIX century that based strongly their beliefs on Prussian heritage-a heritage of genocide, racism and militarisation that found its child in formation of the German Empire in 1871.

it is okay as long as it is directed toward Germans.
 
It's good for Germans too-they can enjoy their lives rather than fight colonial wars of genocide.


It's good for everybody that the Age of Imperialism is over. Few people in their right senses would dispute that.

It's good that Americans don't wipe out Redskins any more, that Australians don't hunt Aborigines for sport, and that Belgians don't chop off the hands of African labourers. I just don't follow your obsession with German imperialism over and above the rest.
 

Cook

Banned
I pop in and look at this thread from time to time, and every time I do, for some fucked out reason there is an argument on about Nazi Germany, 18th century colonial practices of some other equally irrelevant subject.

In fact, anything other than an Allied advance into Germany in World War One!
:mad:
 
In fact, anything other than an Allied advance into Germany in World War One!
:mad:

But Cook, you fail to appreciate that "history" as we understand it was merely a lengthy lead-in and a shorter denoument to the Second World War. Nothing else is of any significance, and the idea of substantially changing history before that war is ridiculous, as it would interfere with the Inevitable Clashes between the world's hostile peoples. Well, between their various modern apologists who need to take a deep breath, anyway. ;)
 
Why don't you just got home, Hurgan? To this wonderful place, it even has a Pole & Troll zone just for you:

Mosquito_Lagoon_Map.jpg


http://www.fws.gov/merrittisland/Mosquito.html
 
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Eurofed

Banned
Ever read Mountain Language? Cultural assimilation that occurs naturally is sad, but "cultural assimilation" imposed by governments is sick.

Sick ?? It depends on the means used to foster assimilation: a government could reward those who accept assimilation instead of punishing those who fail to do so, or just refuse to apply any kind of protection or positive discrimination for the minority language and let the social forces that drive natual assimilation work unbridled.

As for natural cultural assimilation being sad, I suppose you feel some sense of romantic attachment to linguistic diversity or deem it is somehow necessary to the vitality of mankind. I rather focus on the potential for much greater understanding, cooperation, and productivity that linguistic homogeneity fosters (the point of the Tower of Babel parable is very apt here) and I deem that linguistic diversity is much, much less necessary to mankind than biological diversity. There is no indication that the total sum of human creativity is ever going to suffer if we lose linguistic diversity, as many if not more novels, movies, poetry, scientific papers, songs, are going to be created, if the overwhelming majority of mankind gets to use 5 tongues instead of 100, 1000, or 10000. If anything, globalization seems to suggest the contrary.
 
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I rather focus on the potential for much greater understanding, cooperation, and productivity that linguistic homogeneity fosters (the point of the Tower of Babel parable is very apt here)
To confirm, you would support the assimilation of Germans in Polish Posen, West Prussia and Upper Silesia in the Interwar period and you would oppose initiatives aimed at strengthening German cultural influence there?
 

Eurofed

Banned
To confirm, you would support the assimilation of Germans in Polish Posen, West Prussia and Upper Silesia in the Interwar period and you would oppose initiatives aimed at strengthening German cultural influence there?

Sure, why not ? Assimilation breeds peace, whichever direction it happens. OTOH, given that in the interwar world, Polish meant exactly zero on the global landscape, and German had some serious weight as one of the international languages of business, culture, and science, initiatives aimed at limiting German cultural influence in Poland at large, not just the contested areas, would not have been the smartest move.

As I said, assimilation breeds peace, not to mention greater understanding, cooperation, and productivity, but not all directions are equivalent. In my utilitarian geopolitical model, I rather favor assimilation by the strongest states, not the weakest, if there is a choice, since it much better advances the world towards the ultimate utopian goal of global political unity. Nonetheless, peaceful assimilation of minorities, whichever way it happens, is still a most powerful way of quelling nationalistic strife for good, as effective as and much less traumatic than forced population transfers.

I'm not just so sure that assimilation of German minorities in interwar Poland would have been an effective way of preventing future German-Polish strife: Danzig and the Corridor's very existence, not those minorities, were the real object of contention. Settling those issues would have at the very least required Germany and Poland to achieve some sort of early mini-EU and get very generous with mutual free circulation of goods and people.
 
Sick ?? It depends on the means used to foster assimilation: a government could reward those who accept assimilation instead of punishing those who fail to do so, or just refuse to apply any kind of protection or positive discrimination for the minority language and let the social forces that drive natual assimilation work unbridled.

I really, really recomend reading (or seeing) Mountain Language. To deprive a people, by any means, of the language they think in is dehumanising. Britain is not a dictatorship, it's a signatory of the European Charter for Regional and Minority Languages (hurrah for the EU! :p) that does quite a lot on behalf of Celtic languages... and yet nonetheless I've heard a terrible story of an elderly man in the valleys who spoke only Welsh. When a Social Services bloke with no Welsh came around and started hectoring him in English, he didn't reply, so he got marked down as dumb and very nearly sent to medical care before a Cambrophone sorted it out.

Does that frighten anybody else?

As for natural cultural assimilation being sad, I suppose you feel some sense of romantic attachment to linguistic diversity or deem it is somehow necessary to the vitality of mankind. I rather focus on the potential for much greater understanding, cooperation, and productivity that linguistic homogeneity fosters (the point of the Tower of Babel parable is very apt here) and I deem that linguistic diversity is much, much less necessary to mankind than biological diversity. There is no indication that the total sum of human creativity is ever going to suffer if we lose linguistic diversity, as many if not more novels, movies, poetry, scientific papers, songs, are going to be created, if the overwhelming majority of mankind gets to use 5 tongues instead of 100, 1000, or 10000. If anything, globalization seems to suggest the contrary.

Several problems with this:

1) Our culture springs from our collective history. Rivers may widen and broaden along their course, but if you block them anywhere they simply dry up. Our culture would lose an enormous amount if we allowed the great majority of our collective heritage to be forgotten by virtue of being written in the extinct ancestors of extinct languages.

2) When has a common language ever done anything to prevent the hatred which is the root cause of war, destruction, and oppression? One can name hundreds of wars - bloody wars - fought between people who shared a language; and assimilation can indeed simply foster a sense of resentment towards the invading foreigner who destroyed our heritage. The Irish speak English, but are they British? And anyway, what's wrong with using a second language as a common medium of communication? There are societies (India, for instance) where it's the norm. A second language gives you a better command of the first, and a lingua-franca is by its nature inclusive.

3) Orwell he say:

At one time I would have said that it is absurd to keep alive an archaic language like Gaelic, spoken by only a few hundred thousand people. Now I am not so sure. To begin with, if people feel that they have a special culture which ought to be preserved, and that the language is part of it, difficulties should not be put in their way when they want their children to learn it properly. Secondly, it is probable that the effort of being bilingual is a valuable education in itself. The Scottish Gaelic-speaking peasants speak beautiful English, partly, I think, because English is an almost foreign language which they sometimes do not use for days together. Probably they benefit intellectually by having to be aware of dictionaries and grammatical rules, as their English opposite numbers would not be.

In a more famous part of his work, 1984 (also in Politics and the English language), Orwell showed us how limiting the language that we use to express our thoughts in turn limits and muddles the thoughts themselves.

And there are thousands of concepts that are unique to only one or a few languages. English is a bad language in which to illustrate this, as if we want to say "Schadenfreude" or "Frisson", we say "Schadenfreude" or "Frisson". But the words we borrow would never have existed had German and French been dead languages when an Anglophone first found it necessary to express these concepts. That this is a psychological phenomenon - that the language you speak plays a role in conditioning how the neural connections in your brain are arranged - is, I believe, an accepted scientific fact. My mum did a dissertation on it, actually.

As languages die, we lose the ability to articulate certain thoughts in certain ways. Where does it end? When the extent of what humanity can express is actually shrinking, what is to stop it shrinking further, smaller than the confines of one language, as words that our rulers - the people who, ultimately, educate us - find inconveniant vanish from our speech.

Remember Catch-22, the book that showed up the absurdity of modern war to a generation? Heller said he'd never have written it if it hadn't been for The Good Soldier Svejk. And Hasek's novel finds a lot of its humour in Czechs speaking bad German and Germans speaking bad Czech. Without Czech (or German), this book would never have existed and nor would Catch-22.

Are we simply going to say "Oh, somebody would write a satirical explosion of modern war, somewhere!" How can we be sure, when our ability to think is being shrunken and mutilated? What if there wasn't a word for "peace"? What if there wasn't a word for "war"? A word for freedom, or slavery? Well, war may not be peace and freedom may not be slavery, but damn, how do we know that? We can't tell the difference.

The abolition of linguistic diversity, I think, is characteristic of strip-lit, air-conditioned "utopia" in which everybody stands around all day - brave but without fear, strong but without danger, kind but without anyone to help - reflecting on how much more enlightened they are than bygone generations. And as Orwell says, few people really want to live in such a place. People want to live in a world without hatred, cruelty, and fear. It's silly to imagine that they will vanish just because Gaelic dies out.

Sure, why not ? Assimilation breeds peace, whichever direction it happens. OTOH, given that in the interwar world, Polish meant exactly zero on the global landscape, and German had some serious weight as one of the international languages of business, culture, and science, initiatives aimed at limiting German cultural influence in Poland at large, not just the contested areas, would not have been the smartest move.

What's an "international language of culture"? Polish culture, I'm afraid, is only available in Polish.
 
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Typo

Banned
Sure, why not ? Assimilation breeds peace, whichever direction it happens. OTOH, given that in the interwar world, Polish meant exactly zero on the global landscape, and German had some serious weight as one of the international languages of business, culture, and science,
yeah, that and makes Polish language less worthy than German how exactly?


As I said, assimilation breeds peace, not to mention greater understanding, cooperation, and productivity, but not all directions are equivalent. In my utilitarian geopolitical model, I rather favor assimilation by the strongest states, not the weakest, if there is a choice, since it much better advances the world towards the ultimate utopian goal of global political unity. Nonetheless, peaceful assimilation of minorities, whichever way it happens, is still a most powerful way of quelling nationalistic strife for good, as effective as and much less traumatic than forced population transfers.

I'm not just so sure that assimilation of German minorities in interwar Poland would have been an effective way of preventing future German-Polish strife: Danzig and the Corridor's very existence, not those minorities, were the real object of contention. Settling those issues would have at the very least required Germany and Poland to achieve some sort of early mini-EU and get very generous with mutual free circulation of goods and people.
Wait wait, how is assimilating people of new territory "peaceful" when the "strongest states" genreally acquire them through conquests?
 
Britain is not a dictatorship, it's a signatory of the European Charter for Regional and Minority Languages (hurrah for the EU! :p) that does quite a lot on behalf of Celtic languages... and yet nonetheless I've heard a terrible story of an elderly man in the valleys who spoke only Welsh. When a Social Services bloke with no Welsh came around and started hectoring him in English, he didn't reply, so he got marked down as dumb and very nearly sent to medical care before a Cambrophone sorted it out.


Today the problem might be more the other way round. I once heard a lovely story about a Doctor who sent in an order form for some drugs, and insisted on filling it in entirely in Welsh.

He was most put out to receive a reply in Hindi.
 
I pop in and look at this thread from time to time, and every time I do, for some fucked out reason there is an argument on about Nazi Germany, 18th century colonial practices of some other equally irrelevant subject.

In fact, anything other than an Allied advance into Germany in World War One!
:mad:

Its like watching a train wreck in slow motion;)

But Cook, you fail to appreciate that "history" as we understand it was merely a lengthy lead-in and a shorter denoument to the Second World War. Nothing else is of any significance, and the idea of substantially changing history before that war is ridiculous, as it would interfere with the Inevitable Clashes between the world's hostile peoples. Well, between their various modern apologists who need to take a deep breath, anyway. ;)

And then gems like this remind me why I pop back from time to time:D
 
I pop in and look at this thread from time to time, and every time I do, for some fucked out reason there is an argument on about Nazi Germany, 18th century colonial practices of some other equally irrelevant subject.

In fact, anything other than an Allied advance into Germany in World War One!
:mad:

This happens on 95% of the threads on this website.
 
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