WI: The Admiralty's Fleet at Singapore?

Zheng He

I am paging through my well worn copy of BH Liddell Hart's book and he points out that the Admiralty wanted to assemble a substantial fleet at Singapore - two to three carriers, the NELRODs, the four Rs, a battlecruiser, plus attendant cruisers and destroyers.

Churchill of course preferred to send a small number of the newest and best ships.

Let's say they have the following at Singapore by late November 1941:

Carriers - Indomitable, Formidable (let's pretend she doesn't run aground off Jamaica), Hermes

Battleships - Nelson (let's pretend she doesn't eat that torpedo in September), Rodney, Ramillies, Revenge, Royal Sovereign, Resolution

Battlecruiser - Repulse

Plus at least as many cruisers and destroyers as deployed to Ceylon in April 1942 (a mix of modern and older ships).

How does the presence of this fleet change Japan's opening moves. It is easy to dismiss this fleet (particularly the Rs) as it is for a variety of reasons stronger on paper than in reality but the US Pacific Fleet at PH has some real deficiencies as well and in some ways was stronger on paper than in reality.

I don't think the Japanese could ignore a force of this size. Do they try dual preemptive strikes against PH and Singapore (this probably means assembling a carrier force at Cam Ranh Bay perhaps)?

Any thoughts?
 

BobTheBarbarian

Banned
They probably would have gone with Pearl first. Despite that lineup the USN was still more formidable and the RN had a long way to go before it could call itself Japan's equal in carrier warfare.
 

Admiral Beez

Banned
I like where you're going with this, but brace yourself for a flood of contrarians.

If you're sending older battleships and Hermes, I suggest you send Eagle, Furious and Argus to Singapore, leaving the armoured carriers to fight alongside the newer battleships and faster QEs.

Argus is intriguing, as you could imagine filling this hangar with folding wing Martlets.

Aircraft_in_hangar_of_HMS_Argus_(I49)_c1942.jpg


In my mind, this heavy force needs to support a larger force of submarines and gunboats to defend the coast. A dozen of the RN's >60 submarines would have caused significant worry to the IJN, IMO. Add in Dutch subs and you've got a good strike force.

I think Japan will be in a pickle, as they don't have sufficient forces to hit Pearl Harbour and this fleet at Singapore.
 
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lhagambia

How would the Japanese sneak up on Singapore to launch any attack? Hawaii is surrounded by open ocean which made the attack on Pearl Harbor much easier.
 

Riain

Banned
If the RN loaded Singapore with a bigger fleet than OTL Japan would at least have to take them into account and dispose their forces accordingly. Perhaps the attack on PH would have one less carrier, or the pair of carriers that went to Wake would instead be sent quickly to guard against the RN or whatever. Perhaps the invasion of Malaya is delayed until the KB can support it. The IJN new its forces were slender which is why they tried something radical and new by combining their carriers into a fleet and starting the war with a devastating strike.
 

vizzer

BobTheBarbarian said:
They probably would have gone with Pearl first. Despite that lineup the USN was still more formidable and the RN had a long way to go before it could call itself Japan's equal in carrier warfare.
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Up to this point the IJN had not actually done any carrier warfare while the RN had devastated the Italian fleet with a harbour strike at night!

This probably also means that any RN fleet deployed to Singapore will take precautions against such a strike themselves i.e. anti-torpedo nets will be in place.
 

Admiral Beez

Banned
vizzer said:
This probably also means that any RN fleet deployed to Singapore will take precautions against such a strike themselves i.e. anti-torpedo nets will be in place.
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And, if the Singapore (and Malaya) are not attacked at the same time as Pearl Harbour, the Singapore base and its fleet will be on full alert, with RN subs and cans moving to kill any IJA amphibious strikes.
 

BobTheBarbarian

Banned
vizzer said:
Up to this point the IJN had not actually done any carrier warfare while the RN had devastated the Italian fleet with a harbour strike at night!
Click to expand...

Though the RN's FAA was relatively antiquated and its pilots were behind in quality relative to the Japanese. British carriers also made inferior strike platforms to the Kido Butai's vessels due to their smaller compliment.
 

Just Leo

vizzer said:
Up to this point the IJN had not actually done any carrier warfare while the RN had devastated the Italian fleet with a harbour strike at night!

This probably also means that any RN fleet deployed to Singapore will take precautions against such a strike themselves i.e. anti-torpedo nets will be in place.
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They can use the anti-torpedo nets from Alexandria harbor.
 

Admiral Beez

Banned
BobTheBarbarian said:
British carriers also made inferior strike platforms to the Kido Butai's vessels due to their smaller compliment.
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Maybe on offense, but on the inevitable defense the KB was built upon dramatically flammable and fragile ships, terrible damage control and ridiculously inadequate aircraft handling procedures.

What would have made the ultimate carrier strike platform in 1941 on both offense and defense would be Indomitable, USN aircraft handling procedures (including deck parking, bringing complement up to Indefatigable's 72 aircraft), and the IJN's fighter, DB and TSRs.
 

Zheng He

Before we argue about what ships the RN would send - older carriers vs. newer carriers or whatever, how do you all think the Japanese would react to this?

They said that the US Pacific Fleet at Pearl was a dagger pointed at the throat of Japan. Well a large RN force at Singapore is a lot closer to their main line of operation than the US ships sitting fat, dumb, and happy in Hawaii.

There is now way in mind that the Japanese would proceed in a similar manner as OTL if there is a large RN force in Singapore. Singapore is within range of bombers based in southern Indochina but it is out of fighter range.

The only creative thing I can think of is to have fighters fly with the bombers from land bases and then have a force of light carriers about 100 miles due south of the southern tip of Indochina for them to recover on (I did the math it works).

I can't see them getting a carrier force in range of Singapore like they did Hawaii.

Any other thoughts?
 

galveston bay

Zheng He said:
Before we argue about what ships the RN would send - older carriers vs. newer carriers or whatever, how do you all think the Japanese would react to this?

They said that the US Pacific Fleet at Pearl was a dagger pointed at the throat of Japan. Well a large RN force at Singapore is a lot closer to their main line of operation than the US ships sitting fat, dumb, and happy in Hawaii.

There is now way in mind that the Japanese would proceed in a similar manner as OTL if there is a large RN force in Singapore. Singapore is within range of bombers based in southern Indochina but it is out of fighter range.

The only creative thing I can think of is to have fighters fly with the bombers from land bases and then have a force of light carriers about 100 miles due south of the southern tip of Indochina for them to recover on (I did the math it works).

I can't see them getting a carrier force in range of Singapore like they did Hawaii.

Any other thoughts?
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Japanese Naval Aviation 1940-42 would be pretty scary... the Nell is an excellent torpedo bomber and the Zero is superb and better than anything the British have except the Spitfire and definitely better than anything carrier based or the French have.

Just as likely though is keeping the light carriers and land based air back in support, and attacking once the Allied fleets go to sea and are out of range of most of their fighter cover.

A combined attack with the light carrriers and landbased Nells would have been really hard for the Allied fleet to survive without crippling losses. Plus the Japanese battleships are all pretty good, even without the Yamato. Only the KGV class and the Richeleau class are better and the reason only one got sent East was because of the Tirpitz and the German battle cruisers.

The British really needed more fighters, and better ones and effective fighter control and coordination.
 

Admiral Beez

Banned
Zheng He said:
The only creative thing I can think of is to have fighters fly with the bombers from land bases and then have a force of light carriers about 100 miles due south of the southern tip of Indochina for them to recover on (I did the math it works).
Click to expand...
That would be tricky to coordinate. Once word of whichever attack happens first (Singapore or PH) gets out, either the RN or the USN will be on full alert. The Japanese can only catch one place unawares. Assuming PH happens first, the IJAAF bombers arrive at an empty anchorage at Singapore, defended by a strong fighter force (perhaps radar directed by a remaining RN ship?).
 

galveston bay

Admiral Beez said:
That would be tricky to coordinate. Once word of whichever attack happens first (Singapore or PH) gets out, either the RN or the USN will be on full alert. The Japanese can only catch one place unawares. Assuming PH happens first, the IJAAF bombers arrive at an empty anchorage at Singapore, defended by a strong fighter force (perhaps radar directed by a remaining RN ship?).
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true, although if escorted by Zeroes the Buffaloes are going to have a tough time seriously interfering with the attack. Flak would be better coordinated and at least the RN would be at battle stations and with watertight doors closed and damage control parties formed and ready.
 

Admiral Beez

Banned
galveston bay said:
true, although if escorted by Zeroes the Buffaloes are going to have a tough time seriously interfering with the attack.
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But the bombers will be reduced to bombing an empty base. Didn't the RAF remove weight on their Buffaloes, making them credible competitors to the Zero?
 
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