WI: The 4th Crusade was actually a Crusade?

Definitely not! The Empire speaks Greek, and is culturally European. Always has been. TTL goes towards more Western-looking Empire, not a Turkish/Mongol cultural fusion.

I was actually picturing a Christian Khanate in eastern Anatolia...

But no, the Mongols go Islamic on schedule, because otherwise this turns into Orthodoxy-wank. As fond as I am of the concept, it lacks drama/conflict thus making a bad story.

Plenty of room for aggression with Muslim Berke and the Golden Horde
 
Keep up the good work!

What about Greek Fire and the Roman navy?

As you may know, the navy got gutted in the 12th century as a cost-saving measure. By 1240, it is being rebuilt. But it's a gradual process -- institutions get built more slowly than ships.

As for Greek fire, the last documented reference is what, 10th century? 11th? It's gone.
 
As you may know, the navy got gutted in the 12th century as a cost-saving measure. By 1240, it is being rebuilt. But it's a gradual process -- institutions get built more slowly than ships.

As for Greek fire, the last documented reference is what, 10th century? 11th? It's gone.

That is not to say that the Romans don't have incendiaries, but not in the form of siphons. Firepots as hand-thrown incendiaries and as ammunition for siege and field artillery are going to exist. It was kind of a one-trick pony, requiring favorable winds, calm seas, and a defensive position. It could save the Mother of Cities, but not fight the Ayyubid fleet, or beat the Sicilians around Corfu.
 
I just noticed this TL, and I'm loving it. Keeping the Byzantines around is always okay in my book, and this is a really interesting way of doing it (averting the greatest disaster for the empire). I'll definitely be looking forward to more.
 
1254: Repose of St. John III Vatatzes the Merciful. Succession of Theodore II Laskaris

1255: Flemish monk Willem van Ruysbroeck returns from a mission to convert the Mongols. He passes through Iconium, leaving an excellent written depiction of the culture.


1255: War on the Bulgarian frontier begins with the capture of some Roman fortifications; the assembled expeditionary force quickly recaptures them and then demolishes several Bulgarian fortresses, resulting in a hasty peace treaty.


1255: Beginning of the campaigns of Hulagu Khan. Simultaneous campaigns against the Assassin Order and the Lurs of Persia begin.

"I do not trust unlooked-for gifts."

"I do not ask for your trust. I speak for parties who believe you should have this silver and these weapons. They ask nothing but what you will do regardless." The smarmy merchant had a slight Armenian accent, but otherwise spoke perfect Persian.

"Your master is a Mongol vassal."

"Let the Khan believe as he pleases. What does it matter?" A shrug that spoke volumes. "We were here before the Mongols. We will be here after the Mongols."

"What price will be asked if I agree?"

"Honestly, nothing. Many people believe you have no chance, no matter how many mercenaries you hire and how many weapons my friends bring. But we do what we can."

"I do not appear to have many choices, and as uneasy as this bargain makes me, there is a glib answer for everything."

"Indeed. My associates will be in touch with you with more. I suggest you look to hiring as many Khwarezmi as you can. Perhaps you can surprise your doubters."
 
Last edited:
1256:

It seemed to Hulagu that the Heavens themselves were consipiring against him. First that rather public argument with Kitbuqa that deprived him of a strong right hand. As if he were going to avoid a war because of the religious beliefs of a single general!

Then a revolt among the news conquered Lars, which forced him to take troops away from this campaign. Fortunately Kitbuqa was conveniently available to command them. The Georgians and Armenians, who were required to provide troops for the expedition, were dragging their feet.

The campaign was among the more difficult he had engaged in. Not only did the terrain restrict his horsemen to particular lines of travel, but the Romans were excruciatingly methodical about stripping useable supplies off the countryside and squirreling them away in the dozens, or perhaps hundreds, of fortresses they had constructed in Eastern Anatolia. Just because a Mongol could live off of mare's milk and blood didn't mean that it was an ideal diet, nor good for the horses. Each rockpile had a small garrison, and they could be taken, but that would be a tedious exercise that would allow the Romans to pick the time and place of a battle. So he bypassed them, leaving them to whither on the vine. Each one had a small number of horsemen inside which were skirmishing with his scouts. The Romans were losing more than winning, but every fight was sapping his strength. And he may as well be blind -- small scouting parties disappeared, but larger forces found nothing.

It didn't matter. He was headed straight for Caesarea, the headquarters of their Army of the East. They would fight to defend that, he was sure.

Fighting the Romans may have been a mistake. Yet he was sure they were behind the surprisingly fierce resistance of southern Persia to his rule. Swords, bows, horses, yellow gold, mail shirts, all had been found in numbers surprising and suspicious. The Cumans were another sore issue. They had fled Mongol wrath to take up arms under Roman banners, and this was not to be permitted.

So he had demanded that they quarter an army upon Roman territory, intended to operate against Syria, but also to keep an eye on that particularly unruly vassal. To everyone's surprise, the Emperor flatly rejected that demand. When the ambassors attempted to negotiate, they were presented with a formal repudiation of the treaty and declaration of war, already signed, dated, and sealed.
 
Anatolia really is ugly, ugly terrain to be marching about in...

Weren't the Byzantines rather skilled at fortifications, their engineering and construction? Or was that more true in earlier centuries?

Hulagu appears to be walking into a trap... Diplomatically, he gets outmaneuvered, his army is forced to disperse to siege or reduce little forts, his movements are obvious and confined, and lack of supplies steadily weakens morale and effectiveness. Worst of all, he doesn't know where the main body of the Roman troops is, or much else being blind.

Just how fast will the Georgians and Armenians flip sides if Hulagu suffers catastrophe?
 
Hulagu appears to be walking into a trap... Diplomatically, he gets outmaneuvered, his army is forced to disperse to siege or reduce little forts, his movements are obvious and confined, and lack of supplies steadily weakens morale and effectiveness. Worst of all, he doesn't know where the main body of the Roman troops is, or much else being blind.

Just how fast will the Georgians and Armenians flip sides if Hulagu suffers catastrophe?


I'm pretty sure that he's not splitting up his army to besiege the fortifications, but is bypassing them to march on Caesarea, the supposed headquarters of the Eastern armies of the Romans. Since the Mongol army at this point has limited to no supply lines, it's less of a problem. However, the scorched earth policy is a steady drain on his men and horses.

I think if Hulago is heavily defeated, or even killed, the Georgians and Armenians will flip ASAP, but Ioannes knows what he's doing best, I think.

Great TL, Ioannes. I've been reading it, and it's great to see a surviving Byzantine Empire without a crazy Byz-wank. Keep it up man.:)
 
I'm pretty sure that he's not splitting up his army to besiege the fortifications, but is bypassing them to march on Caesarea, the supposed headquarters of the Eastern armies of the Romans.

D'oh. You're right, of course.

So this means the Romans have a clear picture and lines of communication enveloping Hulagu's army, at least. In the event the Mongols have to retreat in disorder, those fortifications could pose still further problems.
 
So this means the Romans have a clear picture and lines of communication enveloping Hulagu's army, at least. In the event the Mongols have to retreat in disorder, those fortifications could pose still further problems.

Absolutely. As Ioannes says, each fortress only has a small garrison, but all the area around has been stripped bare and brought inside the walls. With the Mongols subsisting on Mare's milk and blood all the way to Caesarea, in the event of a Mongol defeat neither the Mongols nor their horses will be anywhere near top condition to march back.

Hell, I wouldn't be too surprised if a large number of the Mongol horses die or go incurably lame, meaning that they'll have to walk back. The forts have small garrisons compared to the entire mongol army, but compared to exhausted, defeated and scattered mongol remnants? That's a whole different ballgame.

Of course, this assumes that the Mongols lose at Caesarea. :D
 
Of course, this assumes that the Mongols lose at Caesarea. :D

If the Romans lose at Caesarea after all their careful preparation and meticulous, strategic odds-stacking in their favor, they'll really deserve it! It'd become a textbook story of how to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
 
Anatolia really is ugly, ugly terrain to be marching about in...

Weren't the Byzantines rather skilled at fortifications, their engineering and construction? Or was that more true in earlier centuries?
Yes it is, and yes they are -- although any given fort can be reduced, they are strong enough that it would take some investment and/or a siege train to do so. He's not dispersing his army to do that, which is the better choice under the circumstances.
 
Last edited:
Hell, I wouldn't be too surprised if a large number of the Mongol horses die or go incurably lame, meaning that they'll have to walk back. The forts have small garrisons compared to the entire mongol army, but compared to exhausted, defeated and scattered mongol remnants? That's a whole different ballgame.

That's also assuming the Roman WANT to destroy the Mongols . . . The phrase 'balance of power' may not have a direct Greek equivalent, but it was the basis of their foreign policy for centuries. "Let's you and him fight" has been the first principle of Roman strategy since the Huns. I think the Romans will be perfectly happy to have an nice equitable peace treaty that frees the Mongols to jack up the Ayyubids.
 
That's also assuming the Roman WANT to destroy the Mongols . . . The phrase 'balance of power' may not have a direct Greek equivalent, but it was the basis of their foreign policy for centuries. "Let's you and him fight" has been the first principle of Roman strategy since the Huns. I think the Romans will be perfectly happy to have an nice equitable peace treaty that frees the Mongols to jack up the Ayyubids.

I think the term is the Latin for "divide and rule", or "something et imperas", IIRC. I'm not sure.

I'm extremely impressed, sir. I was thinking, 'military threat to state, defeat threat, then destroy threat.' You put forth a much more byzantine (If you'll pardon the phrase) thought of, 'military threat to state, defeat threat, sign advantageous treaty with said threat so they screw over those other buggers that have been annoying me':)

That is significantly more in line with this era's ERE than what I thought up. I can't wait for the next update.:D
 
Complicated plans gave him indigestion. He hated complicated plans. Unfortunately, complicated plans were occasionally necessary. Careening headlong into a Mongol army was simply a bad idea. The scouts were too busy fighting for their lives to get close enough to the main body of the Mongols to get a good report on the total size. But spies and the reports he did have were enough to add to the indigestion.

Still, as the Emperor of the Romans, it was rather beneath his dignity to show indigestion. And it would unsettle the troops. Gambling everything on what were essentially giant ambushes was a bad idea. His predecessors would not approve. But years of planning had gone into these ambushes.

To conceal his unease, he pretended to study the model of the battlefield. The steep wooded hills that guarded the flanks were essentially unguarded, except for a handful of menavlatoi. They were the only troops he had that he really trusted to fight on foot in that terrain. He had considered archers, but did not want to give the Mongols any reason to push that direction. The more the Mongols imitated a mad bull, the easier this would work. The archers were deployed in lines, behind armored and shielded spearmen. Each tagma had carts of spare arrows spaced out behind them. The archers each had been provided with a supply of arrows and ‘mice’, the darts fired through arrow-guides out to extreme range. They wouldn’t kill an armored man, but they could wound horses and men when they found unarmored flesh. In between the blocks of infantry, there were batteries of catapults, loaded with incendiaries. There were also the carefully hoarded, hidden, and transported 'kannenoi', which he felt would probably have but little impact. Still, the Mongols were used to being the ones with these toys. He actually had higher hopes for the limited quantity of rockets which could be fired en masse.

In front of the line regiments were scattered loose lines of crossbowmen, with pavaises erected. In front of them were caltrops scattered, with small stakes marked with white rags marking range, and also the lanes for the light horse to retreat.

The light horsemen were basically bait. Turkomen and other archers, intended to let the Mongols know that he was willing to give battle. They were supposed to draw in the Mongols as best they could. It was going to be hard on the Turkomen, but that really didn’t bother him.

Behind the infantry, guarding the flank lanes between the hills and the lines, were heavy horse. Mostly Germans and Frenchmen, and the only thing they were there for was to countercharge any damn fool who got ideas about charging into his infantrymen. It wasn’t their favorite job, but he assured them that they would get a chance to fight this day.

But that alone would hardly be sufficient to win the day. Infantry could hold against a charge of horse, especially if disordered by archery. And there were sufficient archers to bleed the Mongol army badly should it get into a long distance shooting contest – he had more arrows, nearly as many archers, and his archers were equipped with equivalent bows and did not have the disadvantage of trying to sit a horse—which was a great unarmored target in this sort of fight. It was a chancy thing, and he was not going to rely on it.

But that wasn’t the end of the plan. There was a pass. An obvious pass, screened by only a few hundred Cuman. He hoped that the question of “how many horse did the Romans really have, and where were they” didn’t occur to Hugalu. But the obvious plan was to take that pass and use it to outflank the infantry and fall upon them from the rear. Screen the movement with horse archers, and send the nobles, the armored lancers, through the pass. Simple, obvious, easy . . . also the plan he truly hoped the Mongols would adopt. Hidden in a side of the valley was a canyon. Lined up in that canyon, were almost seven thousand lancers. Romans to a man, with a sprinkling of Latin kavallaroi. At the other end of the pass were the remaining Roman horse archers, ready to counterattack.

If the Mongols ignored the pass, they would be hit in the rear by this force. If they ignored the infantry and pushed everything into the pass, the infantry could redeploy to cover the pass in less time than it would take to fight the lancers to a standstill in the confines of the pass, where the maneuverability of the Mongols would be worthless, and where mace could be wielded to good effect.

But the evolution was complex. It relied on the initiative of good officers who knew the plan backwards and forwards and could execute it at the right timing. For this, there was a system of local men wearing no armor and carrying only a knife, wearing dull brown cloaks and mounted on fast brown horses. They had to suffice for eyes, ears, and voice. The fall-back plan involved a fortified camp, a river crossing, and a retreat to Caesarea’s fortifications. But Mongols were lethal in the pursuit. He was vaguely aware that in case of disaster, he would likely die. And that would put his six year old son in an untenable position.

So he had indigestion. And an Empire that had been shepherded for nearly 1,300 years depended on a plan that was just too damn complicated.
 
Last edited:
In case anyone is curious, the basic invasion route runs from Erzincan, seat of a puppet Turkoman Beylik, past Erzerum (fortified to a fare-thee-well, and bypassed), and then follows a generally south western course (modernly the course of a major rail line) to a point a little south of Sebastea, and then turns to follow the line a modern major highway towards Kayseri. Even a cheap topo map of Turkey will show why their course is pretty much limited to a single axis of advance.
 
Oh boy...on one hand, the Empire has the terrain to their advantage. On the other hand, it is an awfully complicated plan, and as a great general once said, no plan survives first contact with the enemy.
 
Almost.

Almost, mused Hulagu, had to be worst word for a ruler.

The vanguard almost caught the Turcomans.

The main body had almost pushed into the infantry before the Frankish knights countercharged.

The rear guard had almost forced the pass. That was a nightmare of close quarter butchery. It had wrecked the Roman force as thoroughly as the Mongol.

Almost, he had ordered a withdrawal at that point. It would have been defeat, but not disaster.

And at the end, when one good charge could end it in victory regardless, they had almost broken the Roman infantry again. The tumans hit the lines, and they bent. They would have broken, had the Romans not thrown in their last reserves. A thousand howling armored axemen, troops that would have never caught a Mongol horseman in a field battle, fell into the swirling melee and wreaked slaughter on man and horse.

Too many surprises. Caltrops hidden in the grass. Those damable Frankish crossbows, strong enough to punch straight through an armored man even at range. And the Roman archers were surprisingly effective. Hugalu wanted to see, close up, the way those arrow guides work. He had heard of them, but never paid much attention to those reports. Just a trick. A trick that had horses wounded at ranges that a Mongol bow could barely reach. He also, having seen the Romans up close, now knew that they had copied the Mongol bow patterns. Each Mongol carried two bows, one stronger and one weaker. Different uses, different roles. The Roman infantrymen now carried ones copied from the stronger of the bows. And the armor! It seemed every single Roman he had seen wore a coat of lamellar.

And now his bodyguards lay dead, and he himself had been overborne by a group of Romans. Two accepted wounds in order to take him alive. He had despaired of life at this point. His only hope now was to die well. Still, he was not restrained, in a luxurious pavilion in the middle of the Roman camp. There were six guards, tall blond mail-clad men, who spoke not a word of Turkish or Mongol. There was also a small man, who spoke fluent Turkish and Persian, and passable Mongol. He said little, only offering wine and a little food.

He had been there for hours, when the tent flaps opened up and a man entered. Thin, wearing blood-spattered armor, and obviously exhausted. Hugalu had seen his face before, and his first thought was that the likenesses on the coins were fairly good. Had he never seen the man before, the red boots would have given it away. Theodore Laskaris, Emperor of the Romans.

“My apologies for keeping you waiting. This is not ideal circumstances. But fortunately, we can dispense with the ceremonial.” His Turkic accent was perfect. He turned to the small man, “Ardziv, you can go now. Thank you.” The small man slipped out and disappeared.

“Well, what now?” asked Hugalu. “I will not degrade myself even at the last.”

“What are you talking about?” asked Theodore. “I have no intention of killing you, nor of inflicting any other humiliation. I want you to return to Persia, alive, unharmed, and as khan. We merely need to adjust the relationship between the Empire and the Khanate.”

Hugalu blinked in astonishment.

“Look, I’m tired. Everything hurts. My ribs are probably broken. I know we Romans have a reputation as smooth diplomats but I really am not up to it now. Your army lost. Right now, it could be saved as a fighting force. If your army survives and you lead it, you can march on Baghdad, fight the Ayyubids in Syria, both of which campaigns are in the Empire’s interests. If you die, or that army is destroyed, or both, Persia falls into revolt and civil war and the Ayyubids have a free hand in Syria and to attack the Armenians. And if you die, in five years I have another Mongol army come screaming off the steppe to avenge you. How does this benefit me?”
 
1256: Mongol demands for quartering of their army on Imperial territory results in a flat rejection. Byzantine troops having been reorganized, equipped with composite bows equal to the Mongol weapons, and reinforced by heavy horse equipped with the latest European-style armor, inflict a narrow defeat on the Ilkhanate forces, already overextended by simultaneous campaigns. The peace treaty which results removes the humiliating provisions of 1243 and restores the borders prior to the initial Mongol invasions.

1257: Manfred of Sicily invades Epiros, taking the Island of Corfu and several mainland towns.

1258: Roman campaign retakes Manfred’s Epirote conquests, including Corfu.

Seeing the fleet under way, masts down for battle and in formation, made his heart swell with pride. A generation of work had built the sort of navy that a man could be proud to be part of. Thankless work, constant training, and rigorous discipline were the key to creating a fleet after the parsimony of previous emperors had completely destroyed the navy by 1204. But now they were back. The Genoese fleet ahead was retreating from the Venetians. The Empire had always tried to balance the two Italian states against each other, as they had the largest navies in the Mediterranean. But the constant naval skirmishing had blossomed out into full-scale war over the past year, and the Genoese were getting handled. So finally the Roman fleet had been unleashed, to save the Genoese from defeat.

And the Venetians were up for a surprise. The Chrisaetos sailed to his ship’s left, ugly bronze tubes grouped in clusters to the left and right of the bow. The admiralty had low hopes for these toys except as a surprise, and the order was to fire them early, to avoid having flammables on the ship in combat. This first ‘rocket galley’ was an experiment, and carried just 14 large rockets, and a regular complement of marines. On this battle depended the future of these vessels.

1257-1258: Genoese suffer serious defeats at the hands of Venetian fleets. Imperial intervention in the conflict restores a balance of power between the two cities.

The Greeks made straight for the library. Once the walls were breached, and the Mongols began running wild, the Greeks, as if of one mind, turned towards the so-called House of Wisdom. In addition to the carts they brought, they stole every cart, wagon, and pack animal they could get their hands on. Vachir was curious, and turned from slaughter to follow them. The Greeks killed only to defend themselves, and when they arrived at the library, half of them formed a circle guarding the wagons, while the others went into the library. They came out with armfuls of books. These were stacked in the wagons, and they did not stop until every cart was full. Not a tenth of the books were taken, and Vachir thought he saw a few more Greeks than he saw going into the library. He shrugged, and decided to find himself something more substantial than paper and ink.

1258: Hulagu Khan attacks the Abbasid Caliphate, sacking Baghdad and killing the last Caliph. Among other effects, it shifts the terminus for the Silk Road to Trebizond. Georgian, Armenian, Crusader, and Roman troops participate in this expedition. Baghdad is utterly destroyed.


1258: Theodore II Laskaris dies. Megas Doux Michael Palaiologus is appointed regent for the eight year old John IV Laskaris. In December, he is proclaimed Emperor jointly with John IV.

1259: Mongols sack Diyabakir. Raids into Syria and Palestine under Kitbuqa. Hulagu Khan returns to Mongolia for election of Great Khan after death of Mongke Khan.
 
Last edited:
Top