WI The 1989 Hillsborough Disaster did not happen?

Coulsdon Eagle

Monthly Donor
The only surprise for me about Hillsborough was that the disaster happened on the watch of the South Yorkshire Police.

IMHO they were only the second-worst at policing games in the 1980s.

West Midlands Police were - like SYP - incompetent & aggressive, but with a fair leavening of cowardice from events I witnessed. They always seemed more likely to be the villains to me.
 
A quick search tells me the recovery position (in recognisable form) was taken up by the European Resuscitation Council in 1992. If a similar tragedy is delayed until 1993 approx when the position would've trickled down to paramedics, Red Cross, and St John Ambulance - and that's a big if - then a few less people die.
Thank you for looking up the dates. And, yes, I agree. This is the discouraging thing about first aid, that it often just makes a little difference.

The recovery position is for persons who are unconscious but still breathing.

If you find an unconscious person on their back, keep them on their back for the time being as you check for breathing. Do a modest and gentle chin lift to make sure their airway is open. Also get the ball rolling as you tell someone by name or by pointing to them to please call 911. You then do the standard first aid practice of hovering your face over their nose as you look downward toward their chest. This way, you are listening for breathing, possibly feeling their breath on your cheek, and watching to see if their chest rises and falls. If they are breathing and if there are no signs of spine or back injury, you prepare to roll them onto their side for the recovery position.

You pull one arm out, so the person won't roll too far. Position one their hands under their cheek, pull up one of their knees, and then roll them onto their sides.

Move their knee and leg flatter and outward so that they're in a stable position. Check that their head is still resting on their hand and arm. You do a gentle and modest chin lift so that the airway will remain open. This is the most important thing and should be the last adjustment you make to the person.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5FfZxIBlRI

the "recovery position" is sometimes also called the "rescue position"
 
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I would say by 1989 actually Football had started to change slowly regards grounds and TV coverage.

I went to my first match in 1985 at Norwich and watched them regularly until the end of the 1988 season, also saw a few games at Ipswich as well.
Norwich along with Watford were the first clubs to open up family areas, I know because I watched quite a few Norwich games from it. Even standing was pretty safe at Carrow Road, although it was in the end that didn't have fences and we stood at the front. Went to three games in 1986 standing v Spurs, Man Utd (Fergies 2nd game as Manager) and Arsenal. I can't actually remember during my three and bit years seeing any trouble at these games, and I saw games against all the "Big Teams" of the day, Everton, Spurs, Arsenal, Liverpool, Man Utd and even those like Chelsea, West Ham that did have a hooligan problem as well.

TV Coverage had certainly changed by 1989, ITV had won an exclusive Live deal with the Football League the previous summer, but it focused mostly on the big sides, although with Norwich challenging for the title had in 1988-89 they did get shown live three times. The BBC had been with left with FA Cup highlights as said before in a previous post. It was certainly a change from the 1970's and early 1980's when the TV companies could only show two or three games as highlights and also couldn't even say what games they were showing until the second half's had actually kicked off.

In Sweden we had Tipsextra on SVT that ran from 1969 to 1995. The Scandinavian networks payed ITV 1 500 dollar/game showed. It aired November to March and the FA cup final in May
 
I don't in anyway condone that "Sun Headline" but the "Daily Star", "Today" and "Daily Mail" all ran basically the same story and the papers still going both still sell in Liverpool.

They all apologised and admitted they were wrong. The Scum never has.

I'd take great pleasure in watching McKenzie's slow death.
 
It would be possible to sell "The Sun" in Liverpool.

Apart from that . . . .

I do agree that the situation of crappy stadiums, crappy behaviour and crappy policing would have led to a disaster eventually, though.

without Hillsborough the move to dismantle the 'cages' and the move to all seaters would have been slower

the medical cover at events might not have recieved the attention it did in the light of Hillsborough - and had the kncok on effects it had across event planning and medical cover for events both in stadia and other crowd events - the UK was all ready reasonably well set up , the primary issue was that the model in use at the time , even after the bradford fire was not as rich skills wise as the 999 ambulance service was developing at that time ( this is still however before the 89/90 industrial dispute over the slow progress of rolling out extended training for techs and trainign experienced techs to be paramedics using the NHSTD 'blue book' )

there is a strong chance that a similar incident could / would have occured either at a league game at hillsborough or at another stadium
 
Thank you for looking up the dates. And, yes, I agree. This is the discouraging thing about first aid, that it often just makes a little difference.

The recovery position is for persons who are unconscious but still breathing.

If you find an unconscious person on their back, keep them on their back for the time being as you check for breathing. Do a modest and gentle chin lift to make sure their airway is open. Also get the ball rolling as you tell someone by name or by pointing to them to please call 911. You then do the standard first aid practice of hovering your face over their nose as you look downward toward their chest. This way, you are listening for breathing, possibly feeling their breath on your cheek, and watching to see if their chest rises and falls. If they are breathing and if there are no signs of spine or back injury, you prepare to roll them onto their side for the recovery position.

You pull one arm out, so the person won't roll too far. Position one their hands under their cheek, pull up one of their knees, and then roll them onto their sides.

Move their knee and leg flatter and outward so that they're in a stable position. Check that their head is still resting on their hand and arm. You do a gentle and modest chin lift so that the airway will remain open. This is the most important thing and should be the last adjustment you make to the person.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5FfZxIBlRI

the "recovery position" is sometimes also called the "rescue position"

shame you are talking rubbish aobut resuscitation processes and the use of therecovery position

the recovery position was well established in first aid practice in the UK and elsewhere in the world by the 1980s ( I was certain taught the recovery position as a St John Ambulance Cadet in 1988 )

the science and unfication of resuscitation medince on an international basis lagged behind,
 
One thing I can think of at least in regards to Scottish Football anyway is Celtic either no longer existing as they do now or as a new team. IIRC Celtic Park pre Taylor Report was the largest terraced stadium in the country and the board at the time had neither the finance nor the inclination to do anything about improving the Stadium. When the report was published they quickly realised how screwed they were but with no finance it became a rallying cry for Fergus McCann and the Rebels which lead to the club being saved if Hillsborough doesn't happen then there is unlikely to be a report into stadia in the UK and the Celtic will continue to wheeze along until the bank calls in it's overdraft but with no rallying point for the rebels against the board it's unlikely the club will be saved.

My father was a massive Celtic fan and he was convinced that without McCann the club would have gone under. The financial rules were different then but it is likely the club would have folded and someone would have had to create a club in its place.
 
They all apologised and admitted they were wrong. The Scum never has.

I'd take great pleasure in watching McKenzie's slow death.

And of course the one newspaper that didn't have coverage of the inquest verdict on its front page was The Sun. The Times missed it from the first edition 'by mistake', but put it on the front page for later editions. it should also be born in mind that accurate versions of events had been put out by local papers and radio reporters covering the game, so what the Sun's claim they were fed the story really means is that they didn't bother with any fact checking.
 
shame you are talking rubbish aobut resuscitation processes and the use of therecovery position

the recovery position was well established in first aid practice in the UK and elsewhere in the world by the 1980s ( I was certain taught the recovery position as a St John Ambulance Cadet in 1988 )

the science and unfication of resuscitation medince on an international basis lagged behind,
So, the details about the recovery position in the link I included are fine.

It's the dates which are rubbish, is that correct?

I speak simply as a former boy scout and a person interested in first aid. And I probably should also say that I'm a Yank.
 
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They all apologised and admitted they were wrong. The Scum never has.

I'd take great pleasure in watching McKenzie's slow death.

It's apologised a few times now, mainly in 2012.

image_update_654b360c15b279ac_1347483346_9j-4aaqsk.jpg
 
The only surprise for me about Hillsborough was that the disaster happened on the watch of the South Yorkshire Police.

IMHO they were only the second-worst at policing games in the 1980s.

West Midlands Police were - like SYP - incompetent & aggressive, but with a fair leavening of cowardice from events I witnessed. They always seemed more likely to be the villains to me.
Yeah the revelations about WMP's "investigation" into Hillsborough are bloody awful.
 
It's apologised a few times now, mainly in 2012.

I bet if you read the story inside there's a lot of excuses and veiled attacks on Liverpool. The 'apology' of 2004 (the only time I've touched that rag since 1989) was a barely disguised begging letter for Scousers to buy it again because they were serialising Rooney's autobiography.
 
I agree with those who say that something similar is going to happen, at some point in the next few years.

My Dad used to go pretty regularly to Ayresome, Roker and St James' Parks. He had pretty sketchy experiences at all of them during the mid eighties. A couple of fans (away, I think) died at Boro when a wall just outside the ground collapsed on them.Middlesbrough - Man U was the fixture I believe. Dad knew nothing about it, until he got home to find my Mam frantic with worry. He's got plenty of non-fatal - but only mercifully so - incidents at other grounds.

At some point, there's going to be a big death toll. Maybe less than 96, maybe even more. Might be Parkhead, or White Hart Lane, or Villa Park, for all I know, but it'll happen. The stadia were crumbling, some of the police thought they were going to the grounds for a barney, and some of the fans were more than willing to oblige. Something is going to slip, and people will die.

The likely result is something like the Taylor Report. The big difference is how the Plods react. If they attempt a cover-up, assisted by lazy journalists, then Birmingham might be a Mirror free zone, or the Sun may be missing from every newsagent in Norwich. On the other hand, the appropriate force may play a straight bat. Or, the press could do their jobs, and realise it was bullshit. Then the poor suffering families may get a bit of closure far earlier, and some of the vile slurs on the fans would never see the light of day.

In terms of football, Liverpool would be much stronger, without Kenny having what essentially amounted to a breakdown. A title or two in the 90s, almost certainly. Blackburn, by contrast, likely don't have their 94-95 run. Beyond those absolutes, plenty more potentials, but it gets increasingly speculative.
 
without Hillsborough the move to dismantle the 'cages' and the move to all seaters would have been slower

the medical cover at events might not have recieved the attention it did in the light of Hillsborough - and had the kncok on effects it had across event planning and medical cover for events both in stadia and other crowd events

So even without a single big horror, you might have the unfortunate side-effect of more people dying or being injured at other events but never enough in one go to properly spur change?

There's a grim thought.
 
I don't think this rises to the level of its own thread, but in this vein, I've always wondered what would happen if you butterflied away Heysel, maybe by having different teams in the European Cup final that year. Not only for whatever changes in stadium safety that Heysel prompted, but also because England clubs were banned from European play for five years (Liverpool for six).
 
So even without a single big horror, you might have the unfortunate side-effect of more people dying or being injured at other events but never enough in one go to properly spur change?

There's a grim thought.

potentially

certainly there;s a chance that laissez-faire policies over the attendance of Paramedic Ambulances would continue unless or until another large incident

in the UK at that time 1989- 1990 there was the beginings of a build up of pressure for Paramedics on NHS emergency ambulances , the 'blue book' having been published a few years earlier codifying a national standard of 'extended training' beyond what we'd now call technician level ( and at that time not necessarily all that more training than the St John or Red Cross volunteers with crew training - as some of the skills that were common tech skills by the late 1990s were still optional - a defib on every vehicle at that time i nthe NHS was aspiration / charity funded )

industrial disputes over both defibrilation skills training and full paramedic training ( too slow implementation) as well as pay and conditions stuff were only a few months away , which combined with the Taylor report, and as direct response to that both the 'Green' ( stadia) and 'Purple' (other crowd events) crowd safety guides / standards produced by the HSE changed the shape of crowd event cover in the 1990s and also spurred both SJA and BRCS to update their volunteer training and equipment ...

at Hillsborough ( or any other league ground ) in 1989 it was canvas stretchers, blankets and bandages ,

at Hillsborough in 1999 ( or other similar size league grounds ) SJA would be deploying 2 or 3 defibs and oxygen/ resus kits into the crowd as well as the defib on it's ambulance and there would be 3 or 4 NHS paramedic ambulances and the equipment support vehicle in the ground ( as well as a further NHS vehicle and personnel for the pitch team ) there would be an NHS paramedic manager in the control room , the crowd doctors would have full resus kit and a dencet drug bag ( as well asthe kit o nthe SJA and NHS ambis and the NHS support vehicle ).

At other crowd events at or around the millenium you;d be looking at providing near hospital standards of care at medium sized events and at some ofthe larger events that would include X ray on site ( and at a few motor racing venues even on site CT)
 
Re: the reaction to the reporting, while the indignation about it all is fully understandable, like Marky Bunny I wish more people would also bear in mind where those stories ultimately originated. Kelvin MacKenzie and a whole host of other over-opinionated, high-profile gobshites have been the receptacles for public anger, while the people who created those stories have too often gone relatively under the radar.

Always remember, everything, absolutely everything, leads straight back to South Yorkshire Police.
 
ObWI: WI a Hillsborough-like disaster happened in the US?

RIP to the Hillsborough 96.:(

Would not have happened so easily because US sporting venues are just about all-seaters (there are rare exceptions likes AT&T Stadium in Arlington, TX, but under very strict Fire Marshal supervision). Even during the bad old days of the 700 Section at Veterans Stadium in Philadelphia, fights between fans only affected a very small group of people in stands.

But getting back on topic, even if the Hillsborough disaster had not happened in 1989, it was only a matter of time before a similar tragedy was going to happen. The combination of poor stadium design in terms of crowd control and variable quality policing was going to cause a tragedy sooner or later. The Taylor Report clearly noted most stadiums at the time could not move people safely in case of an emergency--hence the switch to better design in terms of emergency exits and getting rid of the standing terraces, along with a strict crackdown on hooligan groups.
 
ObWI: WI a Hillsborough-like disaster happened in the US?

RIP to the Hillsborough 96.:(

Not sports and not to the same extreme, but the Cincinnati Who concert stampede in 1979 left 11 dead. It led to a ban on festival (unassigned) seating in the city until something like 10 years ago, and I think a lot of cities stopped using it immediately after the concert.
 
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