WI: Teutonic Order utterly beaten in Great Prussian Uprising

[cincpac overboard]

In the early part of the Great Prussian Uprising (1260-1274), the Old Prussians, a collection of pagan tribes centered around historical Konigsberg, had beaten the Order repeatedly in the field and pushed them back to five remaining castles in what would be called East Prussia. The most famous war leader of the Old Prussians, Herkus Monte, had been educated as a captive in Magdeburg and had learned much about the tactics of the Teutonic Order. He had not, however, learned about siege engines or tactics, nor had any of the other war leaders of the tribes. They could only starve defenders out, and when this tactic failed it allowed time for Papal-sanctioned reinforcements to arrive and turn the tide of the war.

Suppose Monte or another Old Prussian captive had learned proper siege warfare and used it to crush the Teutonic Order before reinforcements could arrive? Can the Order survive such a massive setback? What does it mean for the region to have have the Old Prussians as a now more united entity rather than as a disjointed collection of tribes?

 

[UnaiB]

@Augenis

 

[Augenis]

Even siege warfare would hardly be able to tip the scales so overwhelmingly for the Prussians, but assuming it does, it really depends on what comes out of the region in the aftermath. If Herkus or an another Prussians chieftain manages to consolidate the region before Lithuania's time of troubles after Mindaugas's death comes to an end, they might have a shot at longevity - if they don't, however, well, Lithuania always claimed the Prussian region as its own and they wouldn't hesitate taking over.

 

[cincpac overboard]

If Herkus or an another Prussians chieftain manages to consolidate the region before Lithuania's time of troubles after Mindaugas's death comes to an end, they might have a shot at longevity - if they don't, however, well, Lithuania always claimed the Prussian region as its own and they wouldn't hesitate taking over.

The Lithuanians seemed to have had a cohesiveness and hierarchy that the Old Prussians lacked, enough so that they were able to sign a treaty with Galicia-Volhynia in 1219. This predates Konrad of Masovia's offer to the Teutonic Order of Prussian land, so it seems that the Lithuanian's didn't unite in response to that Order's aggression. I would appreciate your insight into what made the Lithuanians unite so early.

 

[Augenis]

The Lithuanians seemed to have had a cohesiveness and hierarchy that the Old Prussians lacked, enough so that they were able to sign a treaty with Galicia-Volhynia in 1219. This predates Konrad of Masovia's offer to the Teutonic Order of Prussian land, so it seems that the Lithuanian's didn't unite in response to that Order's aggression. I would appreciate your insight into what made the Lithuanians unite so early.

Trust me, if I knew, I wouldn't be here, I'd probably be in the History Institute in Vilnius making lectures about it

Lithuania was arguably somewhat united as early as 1183, as for why, well, we know basically nothing about that time period so we can only make educated guesses. Perhaps the deeper and more hostile contact with the Rus principalities fostered unity, or Lithuanians being generally more warlike than any other Baltic tribe and thus needing to form a mutual pact for large scale raiding, who knows.