WI: Teutonic Knights never fell?

Zioneer

Banned
What if the Order of the Teutonic Knights were never forced to become Prussia, and stayed the world's most powerful Knightly Order?

Only rules: Teutonic Knights stay a highly militarized Knightly Order to present day, under either no nation's control, or; if the HRE still exists, part of that.
 
The monastic life would be so much cooler. That's what sucks now... there aren't bad ass warrior monks anymore. Same thing goes for the Knights of Malta.

And now you make me want to come up with Maltawank.
 
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Susano

Banned
What if the Order of the Teutonic Knights were never forced to become Prussia, and stayed the world's most powerful Knightly Order?
That never happened. Prussia was secularised as part of the reformation, there was no outside force. What you may think of might be the lost war against Poland and Lithuania, but that was 100 years earlier...
 
I'm not sure it's really possible. Society moved on past the stage of the knightly order. In the same way, you could never justify fully plate-armoured knights at Waterloo, or vassal relationships working for modern-day republics.
 

Zioneer

Banned
I'm not sure it's really possible. Society moved on past the stage of the knightly order. In the same way, you could never justify fully plate-armoured knights at Waterloo, or vassal relationships working for modern-day republics.


Maybe the Knights could pass themselves off as a different, Papal State-like republic? Aka with the high leadership choosing the ruler, and the ruler choosing the high leadership? I seem to recall that the Knight's version was more complex then the Papacy, though.

And they wouldn't have to be fully-armored; after all, their successor state Prussia was incredibly militarized, but not that armored.

Hmm.. Say the Grandmaster in charge at the Battle of Tannenburg defeats the Polish-Lithuanian armies?
 
That never happened. Prussia was secularised as part of the reformation, there was no outside force. What you may think of might be the lost war against Poland and Lithuania, but that was 100 years earlier...

Wrong. Polish-Teutonic war of 1519-1521 ended 4 years before Albert Hohenzollern became vassal of P-L.
 
Maybe the Knights could pass themselves off as a different, Papal State-like republic? Aka with the high leadership choosing the ruler, and the ruler choosing the high leadership? I seem to recall that the Knight's version was more complex then the Papacy, though.

And they wouldn't have to be fully-armored; after all, their successor state Prussia was incredibly militarized, but not that armored.

Hmm.. Say the Grandmaster in charge at the Battle of Tannenburg defeats the Polish-Lithuanian armies?

This I see as much more realistic. The key thing I questioned in my first reply was the idea of a knightly order state. This cannot survive unless somehow you can put a blanket freeze on military and to a lesser extent social development (a very, very hard thing to do, nigh on ASB) - made even harder by the fact that Protestantism quickly spread through the Knights, and the doctrine of "Priesthood of all believers" did much to erode the desire for monasticism. But I believe that a Teutonic state could easily continue to exist - indeed, it did for a few generations - if you allow it to move with the times. Keeping its style of electing the leadership is one thing I believe a very plausible idea. They can also stay militarised by somehow defining the new nobility in a somewhat feudalistic fashion as specifically war leaders - a militocracy if you will. With the Protestant culture will come marriage too so I'm not sure you can avoid the knights becoming a hereditary noble class - I guess I'd point to this state as more like Venice and Genoa in some ways, a kind of noble republic. But as you highlight, they would likely under this system keep the more important titles from the monastic order era, and that kind of thing, so there are likely to be preeminent nobles who change according to the whims of the reigning Grand Marshal or whatever the ruler is called.

Just my point of view, anyway.
 

Onyx

Banned
Ah yes, ye old Warrior Monks

*Imagines battlefield*
Enemy: Sire! We have outnumbered the Teutonics, but....theres a....problem.
Enemy General: What is it?
Enemy: They...They have....Warrior Monks
Enemy General: God help us all................
 

Zioneer

Banned
Yes! A religious noble republic! That was what I was attempting to explain in my original post, sorry if I didn't make it clear.

And of course, the Knights were the closest thing to a Christian banker at the times they existed, right? So they could easily adopt some values that seem similar to say, Venice.

Perhaps, instead of continuing to beat on Catholic Lithuania after their victory at Tannenberg, they notice that they are hated by most Catholics, especially Lithuania, so they give up all claims on the Lithuanians, beyond what they already have, along with giving a great deal of money to Poland-Lithuania and focus on fighting the schismatic Russians, rationalizing that it would be safer for them to fight actual heretics, rather then a people who are no longer heathens?

They also note that the Venetian Republic is very close in composition to their own government, and adopt many laws and customs of the Venetians.

They could note the success of the Reformation, and either become Protestant, or realize that they spent the last few centuries murdering until all around them was Catholicism, and that there's no point to converting from a religion that you subjugated entire cultures for, to a new, mostly untested religion.

Sound plausible?
 
Just because the Teutons don't want to fight Poland-Lithuania doesn't mean it's the end of the wars...

Poland-Lithuania will want acces to the sea, and the Teutonic lands are in between

Perhaps if the Knights ceded Prussia to Poland, Lithuania can give up some provinces on the eastern border from where the Knigths can attack the Orthodox Russians and Muslim Tartars...

Unfortunatly it's very unlikely that the Teutons would accept such terms...
 

Zioneer

Banned
Perhaps the Order could attempt to stave off hostilities with the Polish-Lithuanians until they could cede some of their southwestern coastal territory to Poland?

And how about this is after the Teutons have won a war with the Russians, taking much territory from the shismatic Russian principalities and republics? Perhaps smashing Novogorod (spelling) and taking the capital of the same name to make up for selling the coastal land?

And not only that, but fighting the mighty Golden Horde of the Tartars?
 

trajen777

Banned
The TN could have developed into the knight sof Malta and become as "gunpowder friendly" as anyone. To be a dominant state they needed several things

1. More of a nation involving the local populace vs a force in occupation
2. Keep Poland and Lith from Uniteing

This is what killed them. Tech at Tannerberg they actually had more gunpowder wepons and other tech advantages over the others force just poorly led. If they could have kept the poles / lith from uniteing in force or Polit. they should / would have won
 
After Lithuania became Catholic, there was one joint military venture toward Mongol lands in what is now eastern Ukraine by Lithuania, Poland and the Teutonic Knights. If this became the start of a long friendly cooperation and the Knights were given lands in eastern Lithuania to fight for Christianity there, maybe their mission would have lasted for longer. In addition, Protestantism would have taken longer to reach the Knights and its influence would probably have been much much weaker, thus precluding conversion. I have no idea how would the presence of a large Orthodox population around (and in the Teuton lands) affect their policies.
 
After Tannenberg and all that, farther north the Teutonic Order became the Livonian Order, surviving until the 1558-1562 (1582) war and partition. Livonia is always a single color on the map, but it was actually a patchwork of lands belonging to the Order, various Bishoprics (remember, they're warrior monks of the Church), autonomous Hansa cities, each with their own military forces. It could never be up to fighting any of the countries that successfully centralized power-- Russia being the one that kicked in the door, Poland the one that finally came into possession.
 
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