WI tallboy/grand sland used against Hitler's Berlin bunker?

Deleted member 1487

As I pointed out in the first post, Tallboys were used against the Berghof just a few weeks before VE Day IOTL.
So the Allies weren't afraid of Adolf being replaced by someone more capable at this point.

IF Hitler's Berlin bunker had been destroyed at the same time, would whoever was left of the Nazi high command (Goring?) continue to fight or breath a sign of relief and sign a surrender ASAP?

Could the war in Europe be ended two weeks before OTL?

Further, if it does then it also means that the Red Army attacks the Japanese 2 weeks earlier as well.
It's been argued that the intervention of the USSR was the deciding point in Japan's surrender.
If that is the case, could it mean Hiroshima never happened ; or a single nuclear attack instead of two?
I mean the USAAF raided Berlin in April and May 1945 in broad daylight, the Luftwaffe had collapsed by then. The RAF could have easily sent 12 Tallboy equipped Lancasters to smash the Bunker on Hitler's birthday if they really wanted to.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Tallboys were used accurately against heavily defended point targets when it was deemed necessary - Tirpitz.
One critical difference is that Tirptiz was a readily identifiable target. Standing out like a sore thumb doesn't even begin to describe it and AAA/fighter defenses were nothing like those over Berlin.

The Tirpitz does, however, give a reasonable example of the difficulty of this sort of raid. Bomber Command made three deliberate attacks with Tallboy bombs, expending a total of 68 weapons. Strike one achieved on hit well forward, causing some flooding, strike two managed ZERO hits, although one near miss was achieved, the final raid managed 2 hits (one of which was a dud) and a near miss. So you had 69 weapons expended for three, maybe four, hits and one-two near misses. That was against a warship that was 792 ft long and 118 feet wide (making a target with a 93,000+ sq. ft. footprint). The Fuhrerbunker had a total square footage of 3,000 sf, which is huge for a bomb shelter, but is a postage stamp compared to a battleship.

Hitting the bunker would be a matter of luck, and a HUGE stack of it, not skill.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
But could anybody have saved Germany at that point?
No. But the butcher's bill could have been higher. A less foolish leader would have accepted that service as a corporal almost 30 years earlier did not make someone a military genius. The Heer could have stretched out the war for some time, possibly as much as six months, given the chance to operate under professional leadership starting in mid 1943 when the Tallboy entered service. Even in mid-1944 the Heer could have bought two-three months, maybe even keep the Red Army on the East bank of the Elbe until the summer.
 
No. But the butcher's bill could have been higher. A less foolish leader would have accepted that service as a corporal almost 30 years earlier did not make someone a military genius. The Heer could have stretched out the war for some time, possibly as much as six months, given the chance to operate under professional leadership starting in mid 1943 when the Tallboy entered service. Even in mid-1944 the Heer could have bought two-three months, maybe even keep the Red Army on the East bank of the Elbe until the summer.
Sounds like a good recipe for Germany getting a dose of instant sunshine.
 
Tallboy/Grandslam would not fit in the B-29 bomb bay. The Lancasters (especially with the overload of a Grandslam) did not have the altitude to make a daylight raid over Berlin.

The B-29 was used in the testing of the 44,000 pound T-12 'Cloudmaker',
misc26.jpg

but here is a the Grandslam
b29_a_grandslam.jpg


attachment.php
and here with two tallboys
 
One critical difference is that Tirptiz was a readily identifiable target. Standing out like a sore thumb doesn't even begin to describe it and AAA/fighter defenses were nothing like those over Berlin.

The Tirpitz does, however, give a reasonable example of the difficulty of this sort of raid. Bomber Command made three deliberate attacks with Tallboy bombs, expending a total of 68 weapons. Strike one achieved on hit well forward, causing some flooding, strike two managed ZERO hits, although one near miss was achieved, the final raid managed 2 hits (one of which was a dud) and a near miss. So you had 69 weapons expended for three, maybe four, hits and one-two near misses. That was against a warship that was 792 ft long and 118 feet wide (making a target with a 93,000+ sq. ft. footprint). The Fuhrerbunker had a total square footage of 3,000 sf, which is huge for a bomb shelter, but is a postage stamp compared to a battleship.

Hitting the bunker would be a matter of luck, and a HUGE stack of it, not skill.

Yes. I was really commenting on Wiking's suggestion that the reason for avoiding an attack was because of the defences. The AA defences of the Zoo tower may have been greater than Tirpitz's, but not hugely so, I think. And in a late 1944/1945 timeframe the fighter defences over Berlin should not be a serious problem for a well-planned, escorted raid. Against Tirpitz, 617 Squadron was just thrown against the defending fighters and told to hope for the best.

I agree with the targeting difficulties. Another major problem is knowledge of Hitler's movements. No point bombing an empty bunker, even if you do get lucky with a hit. So I think the issue of defences pales in comparison to these, and I'm not even considering the question of whether killer Hitler is desirable.
 
One critical difference is that Tirptiz was a readily identifiable target. Standing out like a sore thumb doesn't even begin to describe it and AAA/fighter defenses were nothing like those over Berlin.

The Tirpitz does, however, give a reasonable example of the difficulty of this sort of raid. Bomber Command made three deliberate attacks with Tallboy bombs, expending a total of 68 weapons. Strike one achieved on hit well forward, causing some flooding, strike two managed ZERO hits, although one near miss was achieved, the final raid managed 2 hits (one of which was a dud) and a near miss. So you had 69 weapons expended for three, maybe four, hits and one-two near misses. That was against a warship that was 792 ft long and 118 feet wide (making a target with a 93,000+ sq. ft. footprint). The Fuhrerbunker had a total square footage of 3,000 sf, which is huge for a bomb shelter, but is a postage stamp compared to a battleship.

Hitting the bunker would be a matter of luck, and a HUGE stack of it, not skill.
Ummm... not totally sure about that, very few of the crews had the skill required but 617 Squadron could achieve some remarkable accuracy with tallboys - the Saumur railway tunnel isn't a lot bigger and took several hits, although other raids did much less well. Conditions were critical - the target had to be precisely marked, weather/visibility conditions had to be good and there had to be no fighter opposition and little flak. So I think 617 Squadron at least could probably have hit an undefended bunker, but in real life it's probably impractical.
There is also another issue here not mentioned - after their experience in WW1 under no circumstances were the various Allied powers going to accept an armistice that saw the German armed forces not completely destroyed in the field. That means any sort of peace feelers from a replacement Fuhrer short of complete and unconditional surrender will be rejected.
 
Here's an assessment of where the Tirpitz bombs struck. Accuracy is variable - seven bombs hit within 100 m or so of the aiming point. It says that 29 bombs were dropped, but only records 16, so I dunno what's the deal with the others.

If the bunker is about 20 m square, then bombs 1 and 4 would be hits, and the other five close ones would probably be enough to cause structural damage and injuries via shock. The bunker is supposed to have had 9 m of soil and 3 m of concrete. The earth isn't a problem; at Saumar they penetrated 18 m of soil and rock, and it seems that Tallboys were able to penetrate 3 m of concrete in the U-boat pens. However, some bits of the roof were thicker and Hitler would probably have been on the lower level, with a better chance of surviving.

So it looks doable, albeit very difficult and quite unlikely. Whether you'd want to do it is a completely difference question...

tiropercatechism2.gif
 

Deleted member 1487

There is the point too that this is an earthquake bomb that functions by transmitting blast waves via the ground more effectively they are are transmitted via the air. So even misses within 100 meters would have serious structural impact on the bunker, which was their entire design function.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthquake_bomb
hey differ somewhat in concept from traditional aircraft-borne bombs, which usually explode at or near the surface, and destroy their target directly by explosive force. By contrast, an earthquake bomb is dropped from very high altitude to gain very high speed, and upon impact penetrates and explodes deep underground, causing massive caverns or craters – known as camouflets – as well as much more severe shockwaves. In this way, they can affect targets that are too massive to be affected by other types of conventional bomb, as well as difficult targets such as bridges and viaducts.
 
The first and only test of a grand slam in the New Forest in Hampshire - created a hole approx 21m deep and 40m across, tall boys created a 'smaller' 25m crater but were recorded as having penetrating as deep as 30 meters into the ground - of course this does not take into account the intended 'earthquake' effect that these weapons would create

Hitler's bunker was 6 meters deep and 30 meters across - a direct hit or even near miss wold probably utterly destroy the place and kill all within.

I would imagine that the successors to Hitler might very well harbour designs on a separate peace with the Wallies while continuing to fight the Russians and initially follow such a course but I believe that such overtures would be given short shrift and the fighting would very likely follow roughly the same OTL course - possibly with the war finishing a week or so earlier especially if news of Hitlers death got out.
 
Top