WI: Surviving Western Roman Empire and Slavic states break up the East

What if the Western Roman Empire maintains control over the Germanics as they move in, breaking apart their tribal identities by scattering their settlement and integrating them into the empire like so many generations before them did and in the 500s, the Eastern Roman Empire fails to stop Slavic encroachment and the empire collapses into numerous Slavic ruled domains from Greece all of the way to Egypt. Constantinople can possibly remain a Greek ruled city-state.

For the next thousand years, the Western Roman Empire continues in one form or another while the Eastern Roman Empire is lost and forgotten, with the various new Slavic kingdoms of the region incorporating Roman-Greek culture into their lives and slowly reaching some sort of new culture between the regional characteristics of these specific former Romans and their own Slavic culture.

  1. Could the Western Roman Empire hold their existing borders for so long?
  2. What would the "Dark Ages" look like with a surviving Western Rome and a fallen east?
  3. What would these Slavic kingdoms with heavy Greek and Roman cultural influences look like?
  4. How would Persia react to this?
  5. Could one of the Slavic kingdoms grow to stand opposed to Persia?
  6. Would a Holy Roman Empire equivalent rise in the east for this purpose?
  7. Would the Islamic Empire, or a similar new religious movement, rise from Arabia under these circumstances and, if not, why not?

Thanks for anybody who can answer any or all of these questions.
 
  1. Could the Western Roman Empire hold their existing borders for so long?
  2. What would the "Dark Ages" look like with a surviving Western Rome and a fallen east?
  3. What would these Slavic kingdoms with heavy Greek and Roman cultural influences look like?
  4. How would Persia react to this?
  5. Could one of the Slavic kingdoms grow to stand opposed to Persia?
  6. Would a Holy Roman Empire equivalent rise in the east for this purpose?
  7. Would the Islamic Empire, or a similar new religious movement, rise from Arabia under these circumstances and, if not, why not?
1. Best case scenario for the ATL WRE is to repeat the world record of the OTL ERE.
2. There might be no "Dark Ages" in this ATL (if the WRE would manage to fight off the Normans).
3. Like OTL Bulgaria, Serbia, Kievan Rus or something like that.
4. Persia would conquer as much as possible of the ERE territories; probably Syria and Egypt.
5. I don't know, maybe the Avars or some other their ATL equivalent conquer a lot of Slavic polities and so cement them into some kind of Slavic-speaking Empire with the ruling elite of the steppe origin. That's a chance.
6. Why not? After disintegration of the Avar Slavic-speaking Empire there might be a Holy Roman Empire in the east - loosely knitted confederation of the Slavic speaking polities headed by a weak "Eastern Roman" Emperor.
7. Hardly so, mainly because of the butterfly effect; OTL Muhammad is too unique, if he is butterflied away - no one can do what he had done OTL IMO. And the early fall of the Eastern Roman Empire probably means the massive 'Persian wank' which might cut short any attempts of the Arab expansion.
 
1. Best case scenario for the ATL WRE is to repeat the world record of the OTL ERE.
2. There might be no "Dark Ages" in this ATL (if the WRE would manage to fight off the Normans).
3. Like OTL Bulgaria, Serbia, Kievan Rus or something like that.
4. Persia would conquer as much as possible of the ERE territories; probably Syria and Egypt.
5. I don't know, maybe the Avars or some other their ATL equivalent conquer a lot of Slavic polities and so cement them into some kind of Slavic-speaking Empire with the ruling elite of the steppe origin. That's a chance.
6. Why not? After disintegration of the Avar Slavic-speaking Empire there might be a Holy Roman Empire in the east - loosely knitted confederation of the Slavic speaking polities headed by a weak "Eastern Roman" Emperor.
7. Hardly so, mainly because of the butterfly effect; OTL Muhammad is too unique, if he is butterflied away - no one can do what he had done OTL IMO. And the early fall of the Eastern Roman Empire probably means the massive 'Persian wank' which might cut short any attempts of the Arab expansion.

1. I agree with that, but do you think that they could maintain the full extent of their borders? Because I feel like Britannia and North Africa would be tough to maintain. I could see the center of power for the WRE drifting to modern day France, which could bring Germania under their control over time.
2. Normans? And yeah, I doubt the Slavs would have the same issues the Germanics did with maintaining a lot of the cultural heritage of the Greeks and Romans.
3. Could you go into more detail here? I don't have a lot of information on hand about them.
4. The Levant is definitely up for grabs, but I'm less sure about Egypt. They'll definitely have pressure over it, but I think the Sinai Peninsula is a good choke point to defend.
5. The Avars would be very interesting to put in this role. I could see them taking Bulgaria, European Turkey, and Anatolia as their HRE equivalent.
6. So are you thinking the Avars rule these kingdoms for a period of time and then maybe their dynasty collapses or something, putting the Slavo-Romans in charge and turning it from an actual empire into a loose confederation like the HRE?
7. So Arabia could become Persia's playground which would result in no major religious shift? I could see that. That could result in Zoroastrians and Christians in conflict throughout the Middle East. It'd have some interesting long term effects.
 
1. I agree with that, but do you think that they could maintain the full extent of their borders? Because I feel like Britannia and North Africa would be tough to maintain. I could see the center of power for the WRE drifting to modern day France, which could bring Germania under their control over time.
2. Normans? And yeah, I doubt the Slavs would have the same issues the Germanics did with maintaining a lot of the cultural heritage of the Greeks and Romans.
3. Could you go into more detail here? I don't have a lot of information on hand about them.
4. The Levant is definitely up for grabs, but I'm less sure about Egypt. They'll definitely have pressure over it, but I think the Sinai Peninsula is a good choke point to defend.
5. The Avars would be very interesting to put in this role. I could see them taking Bulgaria, European Turkey, and Anatolia as their HRE equivalent.
6. So are you thinking the Avars rule these kingdoms for a period of time and then maybe their dynasty collapses or something, putting the Slavo-Romans in charge and turning it from an actual empire into a loose confederation like the HRE?
7. So Arabia could become Persia's playground which would result in no major religious shift? I could see that. That could result in Zoroastrians and Christians in conflict throughout the Middle East. It'd have some interesting long term effects.
1. As I said, the ATL WRE would be fluctuating, getting bigger and smaller, having ups and downs and no, they could not maintain the full extent of their borders for a long time. In the end the ATL WRE would be a tiny shadow of it's former self, struggling to survive. Like OTL Bysantine Empire. (best case scenario)
2. My fault, I was thinking about 'Dark Ages' in the West and now I realize you meant 'Dark Ages' in the East. But actually if the Normans are repulsed by the medieval ATL WRE - they might concentrate their destructive energy on the Eastern Europe. And combined with the steppe nomads coming wave after wave from the depth of Inner Asia, that might cause some ages look pretty 'dark' in ATL medieval Eastern Europe.
3. Oh, imagine medieval Burgundy or Scotland, but speaking Slavic. (it was intended as a joke actually)
4. That didn't save Egypt from the Sassanid Persians in OTL.
6. Ye, but not necessarily putting Slavo-Romans in charge. The Avar elites might stay in charge, but properly Slavicised.
 
One thing that would help the WRE, if it survived the Migration Period, is that its on the periphery of the world, rather than right smack dab in the crossroads of everyone. If they can maintain a lock on the Western Med, they've got a nice series of borders: Alps, Pyrennes, and Sahara. Even if they don't hold Gaul, they're in a good position.
 
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