WI: Surviving House of Görz/Gorizia

The last independent Count of Gorizia, Leonardo/Leonhard died childless and left his county to Maximilian of Habsburg. From his wikipedia article, Leonhard and his brothers, inherited a ruined county from their father, and further lost out by disputing the Celje inheritance of Ulrich II. When they lost the inheritance dispute Friedrich III seized part of the county, whilst Maximilian seized the remainder on Leonhard's childless death.

Is there a way that Gorizia could "bounce back" from this slump? Perhaps through shrewder decisions or better luck (perhaps not having half their county seized by the Emperor?)

Looking forward to responses
 
This just occurred to me: The last Count of Görz's sister, Anna of Gorizia, was married to Bruno della Scala, sometime Lord of Verona. Since most of the Terra Firma of la Serenissma comprised of former territory of the Margraviate of Verona, should Anna have kids with her della Scala/Scaliger husband, they would be heirs to territory (however ephemeral) on both sides of la Serenissima (margraviate of Verona + county of Gorizia). How might this affect sixteenth century Italian politics.
 
Brunoro della Scala died in 1437, the same year he married Anna of Gorizia. He was 57 years old, and it is unlikely he would have children even if he got a few years more. Anna was the daughter of Enrico VI, and the sister of Leonardo who was the last count of Gorizia and died in 1500. I doubt your scenario may work, also considering that at the time of his death Brunoro had been in exile for some 30 years
 
Brunoro della Scala died in 1437, the same year he married Anna of Gorizia. He was 57 years old, and it is unlikely he would have children even if he got a few years more. Anna was the daughter of Enrico VI, and the sister of Leonardo who was the last count of Gorizia and died in 1500. I doubt your scenario may work, also considering that at the time of his death Brunoro had been in exile for some 30 years

Damn! And here I thought I was on to a reasonably good idea. That's what you get for trusting wikipedia:confused:

Is there a reason that you say Brunoro wouldn't have had children even had he lived longer? And, since I can't find much info on Anna, did she remarry after her first husband? Or did she stay a widow? Who might be useful as a husband - Leonhard married a Gonzaga second wife?
 
Thttp://www.crsrv.org/pdf/collana_degli_atti/Conti_Gorizia_Peter_Stih.pdf (it is in Italian, sorry) There is this dissertation on the history of the counts of Gorizia which is pretty interesting, although it doesn't deal too much with the end of the dynasty: the Habsburg had been slowly but steadily gobbling up the territories of the counts of Gorizia, and well before the death of Leonardo it was clear that they would have taken his last territories too. As far as Anna is concerned, there are no tidbits I was able to find; however in the genealogy of the house Anna appears to have married just Brunoro. There is no real reason for which Brunoro and Anna could not have children other than the fact that Brunoro was not a spring chicken when he married and the long years of exile would have taken a toll (also the fact that Anna never remarried might be an indication that she was not well suited for married life): OTOH Mainardo IV had two sons from Catarina of the house of Bayern at a late age (which was lucky but once again meant a long and difficult regency), so who really knows? Paola Gonzaga, Leonardo's only wife, was married to Leonardo in 1477 when she was 13 years old; for a number of reasons the marriage was only consummated a couple of years later. Paola was all her life a sick woman, apparently tormented by heart problems. It was not a good choice for Leonardo: the Gonzaga were a rich and powerful family (much more than the counts of Gorizia, which had weakened substantially in the 15th century) but due to the health problems of the bride no heir was produced (a daughter was born but died in infancy). I do wonder why Leonardo waited so long to marry, given the obvious succession problem. His father Enrico IV sired 10 children, 5 daughters on his first wife and 2 daughters and a 3 sons on the second one, Caterina Garay. Out of the sons only Leonardo survived infancy: if one (or both) of his brothers survive too, it might secure the succession (Leonardo was the youngest, and would not become count), but I doubt that the fortunes of the house of Gorizia might be revived at this late date (Gorizia's possessions are squeezed between Venice and the Habsburgs, with the Ottomans close to the border too).
Here's a link for Paola Gonzaga (in Italian again): http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/paola-gonzaga_(Dizionario-Biografico)/

The history of the house of Gorizia is fascinating (and bloody complicated too, since the house split in different branches but the names are always the same). If one had the time and the will, it could be possible to write a TL where the counts of Gorizia become lords of all of north-east Italy, including Trentino and Tyrol, from Padua to Istria and they can give a run to the Habsburg for their money. The peak of their power was in the first third of the 14th century, and was cut short by the sudden death of Enrico II (1335 IIRC) who left two infant sons and a long and difficult regency just after taking Treviso and Padua. If Enrico survives long enough, he might be able to consolidate his acquisitions; there might be a three-way game starring the Visconti in Milan, the Della Scala in Verona and the counts of Gorizia (plus Venice, who is still not engaged on Terrafirma but cannot be happy with the consolidation of a state which controls Padua, Treviso, the Friuli and threatens the critical Venetian possessions in Istria).
 
Thttp://www.crsrv.org/pdf/collana_degli_atti/Conti_Gorizia_Peter_Stih.pdf (it is in Italian, sorry) There is this dissertation on the history of the counts of Gorizia which is pretty interesting, although it doesn't deal too much with the end of the dynasty: the Habsburg had been slowly but steadily gobbling up the territories of the counts of Gorizia, and well before the death of Leonardo it was clear that they would have taken his last territories too. As far as Anna is concerned, there are no tidbits I was able to find; however in the genealogy of the house Anna appears to have married just Brunoro. There is no real reason for which Brunoro and Anna could not have children other than the fact that Brunoro was not a spring chicken when he married and the long years of exile would have taken a toll (also the fact that Anna never remarried might be an indication that she was not well suited for married life): OTOH Mainardo IV had two sons from Catarina of the house of Bayern at a late age (which was lucky but once again meant a long and difficult regency), so who really knows? Paola Gonzaga, Leonardo's only wife, was married to Leonardo in 1477 when she was 13 years old; for a number of reasons the marriage was only consummated a couple of years later. Paola was all her life a sick woman, apparently tormented by heart problems. It was not a good choice for Leonardo: the Gonzaga were a rich and powerful family (much more than the counts of Gorizia, which had weakened substantially in the 15th century) but due to the health problems of the bride no heir was produced (a daughter was born but died in infancy). I do wonder why Leonardo waited so long to marry, given the obvious succession problem. His father Enrico IV sired 10 children, 5 daughters on his first wife and 2 daughters and a 3 sons on the second one, Caterina Garay. Out of the sons only Leonardo survived infancy: if one (or both) of his brothers survive too, it might secure the succession (Leonardo was the youngest, and would not become count), but I doubt that the fortunes of the house of Gorizia might be revived at this late date (Gorizia's possessions are squeezed between Venice and the Habsburgs, with the Ottomans close to the border too).
Here's a link for Paola Gonzaga (in Italian again): http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/paola-gonzaga_(Dizionario-Biografico)/

The history of the house of Gorizia is fascinating (and bloody complicated too, since the house split in different branches but the names are always the same). If one had the time and the will, it could be possible to write a TL where the counts of Gorizia become lords of all of north-east Italy, including Trentino and Tyrol, from Padua to Istria and they can give a run to the Habsburg for their money. The peak of their power was in the first third of the 14th century, and was cut short by the sudden death of Enrico II (1335 IIRC) who left two infant sons and a long and difficult regency just after taking Treviso and Padua. If Enrico survives long enough, he might be able to consolidate his acquisitions; there might be a three-way game starring the Visconti in Milan, the Della Scala in Verona and the counts of Gorizia (plus Venice, who is still not engaged on Terrafirma but cannot be happy with the consolidation of a state which controls Padua, Treviso, the Friuli and threatens the critical Venetian possessions in Istria).

Thanks for the help. So if we were to take Enrico II living longer as a POD, how might we see things developing from there? Sorry, medieval Italian history is not my forte
 
Thanks for the help. So if we were to take Enrico II living longer as a POD, how might we see things developing from there? Sorry, medieval Italian history is not my forte
I'm not sure I can really help: Italian history in the 13th and 14th century is horribly complicated, and the lordships which were formed (such as the Della Scala in Verona, the Gorz in Friuli and Istria under one branch and Tyrol-Trentino-Carinzia under a separate branch, the Visconti in Milano) were still very tentative and could go literally overnight from assured political dominance to parlous ruin. Add the fact that the inheritance system was not based on primogeniture, but rather followed the Frankish custom of splitting inheritance among all male sons and creating collateral branches almost always at odds with each other, with the added complication that the given names were the traditional family ones which adds to confusion (for example, the Enrico of Gorizia styled II whom I understood suddenly died in 1335 was actually a scion of the Tyrol branch of the Gorizia, while the Enrico who suddenly died and left an infant son was from the Friuli branch, and passed away very suddenly in 1323 when his fortune was at the apex. The same guy - Mainardo father to the Enrico of Tyrol dead in 1335 - is referred to as Mainardo IV of Gorizia in some sources, and Mainardo II of Tyrol-Gorizia in others: at times I felt my head was exploding. It's not over yet: the HRE is quite a mess in the 13th and 14th century, and Italian lords - in particular the Gorizia given the geographical location of their domains but also the other great houses - meddled a lot at times supporting the dukes of Austria at times the dukes of Bavaria (and often both,although it looks very difficult :p). The vicissitudes of the imperial title and its fortunes are very tightly tied to Italian events. Then there is the papacy, which is not in a great shape but fighting to keep the temporal power alive (and in the meantime there is still the Great Schism coming pretty soon, and ruining some players while providing opportunities to others). Did I mention the merchant republics? Venice, Genoa and Pisa are mostly involved with trade in the east as well in bitter wars among themselves; OTOH the governance of both Pisa and Genoa is less than stable (Venice is a different story, but the Serenissima too experienced some internal trouble in the 14th century and they are prone to internecine fights which draw in the lords of the Padan valley (and also France at times, at least when they were not too busy fighting the English in the 100 years war - this again has an impact on Italian events). I realize that I did not mention the second-tier noble houses, some of them pretty significant on their own (Savoy, Este, Da Camino, Montferrat, Malatesta). To cup everything up, it is also the century of the Black Death.

I've often toyed with the idea of a successful Gian Galeazzo Visconti TL (and by the last quarter of the 14th century the situation has become a bit more simplified), but the amount of research to be done as well as the fact that I was not able to find a comprehensive book by a reliable historian has always stymied my enthusiasm: in a way the problem is not the lack of primary sources but rather the extreme abundance of them. It's a job for a professional historian not a dilettante at best.:cryingface:
 
Sure sounds like it. I appreciate your honesty.

And I'm guessing that the cadet branches of Capet and Barcelona in the south, don't make matters any simpler. Since from what I can find, there were one or two Angiovesi matches into the della Scala family (which also showed a predilection for marrying Bavarian/imperial princesses), same goes for the Visconti (Bavaria, Capet and Austria being their chief marriage choices), while the Barcelonians preferred the Kärtner branch of the Meinhardners family. It really is a bowl of spaghetti...
 
Top