What if Gaelic Ireland managed to avoid English conquest? Could they even keep the High King position in some form into the present? Perhaps becoming a federation at some point? How would Europe develop? would Ireland get in on the colonial game?
WI: Surviving Gaelic Ireland in the present day.
- Thread starter Grammar Kaiser
- Start date
I suppose you mean culturally Gaelic rather than just merely linguistically. The idea of a High King happened only a few times in any substantive manner of holding power in Irish history and was never really sustainable. Brehon Law, after all, while internally effective to a degree, somewhat stifled any processes of urbanization or specialization economically and any idea of political centralization, as Tanistry and Gavelkind were used in inheritance policies and the Kings could never seize the kind of power that absolutists did in other areas of Europe due to the constraints on them.
Ireland geographically placed would have been well able to engage in colonial activities in modern day Atlantic Canada had they developed the naval technology for it, but that presumes political unity, which would not exist.
As for the Gaelic language, that would be around still had it not been for the diaspora which encouraged the learning of English over Irish and the gradual discouragement of using it in public life. The language as it exists today only does so in a few scattered parts of Western Ireland, as well as inside the education system, when it is forgotten as soon as students leave.
Ireland geographically placed would have been well able to engage in colonial activities in modern day Atlantic Canada had they developed the naval technology for it, but that presumes political unity, which would not exist.
As for the Gaelic language, that would be around still had it not been for the diaspora which encouraged the learning of English over Irish and the gradual discouragement of using it in public life. The language as it exists today only does so in a few scattered parts of Western Ireland, as well as inside the education system, when it is forgotten as soon as students leave.
I figured the High Kings as they were wouldn't continue. I meant an eventual centralization under a powerful king who eventually just takes the Title and keeps it, and by chance it just doesn't fall out of use under his successors (mind you, this would take centuries before such a figure appears). And it avoids the trouble of demoting lower kings later. The position would be different from the old one, sharing only it's name. That's at best of course.
It’s possibly more likely imho although obviously I’m no expert but if one of the powerful gselicized Norman/welsh lords was wanked sufficiently. This military genius (imo he would have to be pith politically and militarily incredibly astute) warlord now high king would begin his own dynasty which would supplant and erase earlier dynasties bringing with him a centralised pholiosophy, capital and a concept of Irish nationhood. Indeed no small beer - almost Asb but surely possible.
If Edward Bruce wins, what would be the prevalent language at his court?
Norman French? Some French did get received in Scotland as immigrants?
The Sassenach tongue of the Lowland Scots coming over with him and of the Anglo-Irish submitting to him as he wins?
Or the Gaelic speech of the majority of his Irish subjects and of the Highland Scotch immigrants in his army?
Norman French? Some French did get received in Scotland as immigrants?
The Sassenach tongue of the Lowland Scots coming over with him and of the Anglo-Irish submitting to him as he wins?
Or the Gaelic speech of the majority of his Irish subjects and of the Highland Scotch immigrants in his army?
I started a Timeline about this years ago, with a POD of a longer surviving Brian Born and the establishment of hereditary monarchy.
Ooh. Could I have a link? Is it finished? Or did it just die? I had that happen with an attempt at a Habsburg wank once.
The Ó Brians never really tried to change the system up though. They were strong within it but only to the max allowed by the system anyway. In fact, Brian's death goes to show that despite all the power he was able to accumulate it still only lasted his lifetime - the death of his son and grandson in battle most likely didn't help much either. Even if he or/and they didn't die the second he did the lords/kings forget his 'power' and start to re-assert possible independence forcing Brian's successor to go around again and subdue all. Again. If that happens each succession you're not getting a strong, centralised kingdom.
Combined with the fact that while remembered as the greatest king he actually didn't rule the whole island completely or at least through royal channels but only really held power in the southern and eastern parts of the island. To get the kind of result @Grammar Kaiser is looking for you'll either need a native king to import or form the idea of a ruling monarch rather than a reigning one or have as @Nomis Nosnibor suggested a foreign ruler come and instil these ideals. This gets you the - relatively - centralised kingdom with which one can resist invasion, colonise and influence. Perhaps.
Now time for the blatant self-advertising on this topic of myself. Look at my sig. Done. That felt disgusting *shivers*.
It has to be the fact that they bring with them the military and political knowledge of the Norman’s which was so successful in this period. The Norman’s are incredibly well documented as being able to fuse or hybridise two differing cultures in order to embolden and compliment the vernacular society whilst bringing to the table a concept of arms and politics which is at the forefront of Western Europe.
I never finished it, but here is the link
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/a-free-ireland-a-tl-where-brian-boru-lives.208795/
There was no Norman Conquest of Scotland. The patriline from Malcolm III Canmore lasted till Alexander III. And Malcolm III seems to have been Celtic more than Saxon Lowland Scots.
Yet by 1286, Scotland was heavily Europeanized.
What were late 11th and 12th century Irish kings trying to do, that Scottish kings succeeded in doing? What did Malcolm Canmore, Edgar, Alexander I, David I, Malcolm IV and William the Lion do right that no Irish king did?
Yet by 1286, Scotland was heavily Europeanized.
What were late 11th and 12th century Irish kings trying to do, that Scottish kings succeeded in doing? What did Malcolm Canmore, Edgar, Alexander I, David I, Malcolm IV and William the Lion do right that no Irish king did?
IIRC, after Clontarf Brian's two younger sons both claimed the throne, at which point the whole thing fell apart. It always seemed to me that if Brian and his eldest son had survived Clontarf, at which point he would have had control of the whole island (Mael-Murda was his last serious rival), he could have finished setting up the structures to create a dynasty. Most likely, there's another rebellion after Brian's death, but if you have the dynasty united, then I think they have the advantage. True, things might still have fallen apart, especially if we got a vicious/idiot king within a generation or two of Brian, but if the O Brians managed to hold on for a century or so, I think they'd have it in the bag. Even if another dynasty replaced them, people would be accustomed to a united Ireland.
Another possibility is formalizing the system of electing the High King. You'd probably need the church to get involved, which either means Brian's reforms survive, or the Irish church somehow unifies on its own. Perhaps, during the reign of a strong High King, Ireland gets invaded, but the High King decisively beats them off after a few years of warfare, at which point oh look, everyone who didn't support him got crushed during the invasion.