WI: Surviving Burgudian language

Valdemar II

Banned
I was looking at Burgudian settlement after the fall of first Kingdom and found this map http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Map_Burgundian_Kingdom_EN.png, it got me thinking the area was resettled in as federatis was relative empty, it was close to their old settlement and close to Alemannic settlements, so what if Burgundian survived* as a languages in westen Switzerland, northen Savoy and East Franche-Comte.

*at least to the 10th century and was the majority language in the mentioned area at that time.
 

Philip

Donor
It seems reasonable that a Burgundian speaking community could survive 'hidden' in the Alps. I don't know what the outcome of all this would be.

One such community is a feature of a timeline I am working on. ITTL, some retreat into the mountains to escape domination by other Germanic groups. They also manage to maintain their semi-Arian form of Christianity. They don't really have much of an effect on the wider world -- just a curiosity.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
It seems reasonable that a Burgundian speaking community could survive 'hidden' in the Alps. I don't know what the outcome of all this would be.

One such community is a feature of a timeline I am working on. ITTL, some retreat into the mountains to escape domination by other Germanic groups. They also manage to maintain their semi-Arian form of Christianity. They don't really have much of an effect on the wider world -- just a curiosity.

Interesting, but I think that they would adopt Catholism or be forcefull converted to Catholism. Of cource if they convert willingly I could see Burgudian become their Church languages.
 
Well, there are two different Burgundian languages - one is Romance (and is a langue d'oïl) and one is Germanic. There are some scenarios I can figure out, depending on which version you choose:

*If the Romance one, it would either survive either as a distinct French dialect (that would also be popularly known in ATL as Swiss French - if Switzerland exists in ATL - alongside the traditional area of Burgundy/Franche-Comté) or as a language somewhat distinct from French.
*If the Germanic one (which I think you are most likely referring to), eventually they would be forced to convert, but I could see its usage as a Church language (at first, eventually it will be sidelined by Latin).
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Well, there are two different Burgundian languages - one is Romance (and is a langue d'oïl) and one is Germanic. There are some scenarios I can figure out, depending on which version you choose:

*If the Romance one, it would either survive either as a distinct French dialect (that would also be popularly known in ATL as Swiss French - if Switzerland exists in ATL - alongside the traditional area of Burgundy/Franche-Comté) or as a language somewhat distinct from French.
*If the Germanic one (which I think you are most likely referring to), eventually they would be forced to convert, but I could see its usage as a Church language (at first, eventually it will be sidelined by Latin).


Here I mean the Germanic one.
 
Okay, so building from that. Since there is very little in that language in OTL, it would be hard to reconstruct.

But in this ATL, there would be at least be some material in the language (most likely a missal and a few other manuscripts - that's a start!), so that's a plus.

So, let's start from the Second Burgundian Kingdom. Now, Wiki says that Burgundian was spoken until the early 6th century AD. Since we are still in the 400s, let's say an early conversion to (Catholic) Christianity, but under the condition that some material be produced in their own language. Thus, an orthography based on the Latin alphabet is devised, along with some material (perhaps a translation of the Bible, for example), and maybe even a grammatical treatise. Burgundian would probably have had some loanwords from Latin/Greek early on (and could function as a Church language - until it gets displaced by Latin).

A big POD would be that Gundobad's brother does not betray him to the Franks. With that, Clovis would probably be defeated. To do that would require some reconciliation between Gundobad and the brother. Thus, we could have more or less a surviving Burgundian kingdom, consolidated earlier.

How does that sound, so far?
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Okay, so building from that. Since there is very little in that languag in OTL, it would be hard to reconstruct.

But in this ATL, there would be at least be some material in the language (most likely a missal and a few other manuscripts - that's a start!), so that's a plus.

So, let's start from the Second Burgundian Kingdom. Now, Wiki says that Burgundian was spoken until the early 6th century AD. Since we are still in the 400s, let's say an early conversion to (Catholic) Christianity, but under the condition that some material be produced in their own language. Thus, an orthography based on the Latin alphabet is devised, along with some material (perhaps a translation of the Bible, for example), and maybe even a grammatical treatise. Burgundian would probably have had some loanwords from Latin/Greek early on.

A big POD would be that Gundobad's brother does not betray him to the Franks. With that, Clovis would probably be defeated. To do that would require some reconciliation between Gundobad and the brother. Thus, we could have more or less a surviving Burgundian kingdom, consolidated earlier.

How does that sound, so far?


Nice but I don't think military victories would result in a surviving language most likely it would kill the language faster, when the speakers is spread out in thinner in a mostly Latin population. I think a more limited Second Kingdom at least in the start would be better, because when when they could create a stable populationbase in the settlement area. maybe we could see a Visigothic conquest of the area the second Kingdom would later conquer, which means that the Second Kingdom is more or less limited to Maxima Sequanorum. Later we could see Burgudian expansion when the Franks conquer Aquitaine from the Visigoths.
 
True, but then again, I had placed in some sort of a condition for an early conversion - that the King requests that some material be in their language. In terms of possible surviving material, it could be a start.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
True, but then again, I had placed in some sort of a condition for an early conversion - that the King requests that some material be in their language. In terms of possible surviving material, it could be a start.

But they don't need surviving material, they need to survive as a localised languages, beside Gothic had a rather large literal tradition*, but little of it survived, because most of was left to rot when Gothic died out as spoken languages.

*by the standards of the time
 

Valdemar II

Banned
I see. Well, I think a good place to start would be Geneva.

Yes, but you have given my idea, I got to think, "what had the the Roman areas which was linguistic taken over by Germanics and the tribes which did it in common*"
The tribes which succeded in taking over were the Franks, the Almannian and the Bavarian, none of those tribe were very succefull in the start. The Franks was federalis which was forced to settled in the southen Netherland/Flanders/Rhineland area and first began expant rather late. The Alemannian was defeated several time by the Roman and their expansion was slow. The Bavarian had to settle a rather limited area because the Langobard made southen expansion impossible. Beside all the areas they took over was rather underpopulated
So the answer could be that they was located relative empty area near Germanic population bases and they had little expansion in the start. Burgudians has the first two thing in common but not the third. So if they can be "Maxima Sequanorum" for the first century, we will see them create take over their settlement area, the biggest problem is that Alemannic settlers will likely begin to drive them out of northen Maxima Sequanorum.

*With exception of Britain which was unique.
 
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