WI: Surviving Albany Stewarts
- Thread starter Kellan Sullivan
- Start date
For a match for Albany's son (if we're going with him being more or less of an age with James V), why not one of the girls James either rejected or at least one of their sisters? Marie de Bourbon sounds like a promising candidate, esp. if James slights her, then a marriage to the Comte de Saint-Saturnin (I think it was a countship I'm not sure), Albany's son, is still a reasonably good marriage. Although she may still die earlier. But what of marrying James V to Mary Tudor/Madeleine de Valois and Albany's son to Marie de Guise, dowager duchesse de Longueville? For now Guise wouldn't have to necessarily leave France, at least until James V's death. Then Albany-Saturnin becomes regent. Which could be fun all by itself if he's gotta go toe to toe with Mary Tudor, mother of Mary, Queen of Scots.
Out of curiosity, Murdoch had legitimate issue (at least from what I can make out) by his marriage to Isabel Lennox, Countess of Lennox, with the male line descending from him only ending in 1547. Were they banned from the succession? Or were they actually illegitimate? Or what was the deal with that Albany branch? Anyone know?
VVD0D95
Banned
They were removed from the succession in an attainder I believe. And I don't think James the fat had any legitimate kids
So a similar situation in Scotland to Warwick in England? Interesting. Or more like the Beauforts? Part of the royal family, but without succession rights?
VVD0D95
Banned
Just done some reading up on it, the last son Murdoch Stewart, James Mor Stewart didn't marry, but he had several illegitimate children. James Beg Stewart his eldest son, was the ancestor of Stewarts of Ardvorlich on Lochearnside,
Out of curiosity, why could you see the betrothal being cancelled? And who might make a good replacement for Mary? (Elizabeth Tudor if she's close enough in age, perhaps?)
Elizabeth would definitely be an option that they go for, but more likely than not it's either a Frenchwoman, or some Scottish Noblewoman. I'd even suggest one of Mary's Maries, once she returns from France when Francis II dies. Hell, if the Duke of Albany has no bride while Mary Stuart is in France, he could theoretically end up with Mary of Guise, although she's probably be, minimum, 10 years his elder.
Going off suggestions made in this thread and my own ideas:
John Stewart, Duke of Albany (b.1484: d.1536) m. Anne de La Tour, Countess of Auvergne (b.1496: d.1524) (a)
- A son between John Stewart, Duke of Albany and his wife the Countess of Auvergne around 1512, named Alexander.
- That same son marries Marie of Bourbon instead of the King, who married the Princess Madeleine. However, I do think she'll die young, and if so, I can see him remarrying, perhaps to a Douglas girl, or a sister to the Earl of Lennox. If we say Lennox, then perhaps the youngest girl, Elizabeth, who was the King's Mistress for a time, and most likely was born around 1525. However, that means she'd be only 12 when he's left a widower. I'm going to make the suggestion he remains a bachelor until after his cousin's death. He's young, got a son already, and wealthy enough to support a mistress in style if he wants company.
- At some point, he probably attempts a betrothal between himself and Mary Tudor, and alternatively Margaret Douglas. I can see the second one going better, but I do think that any of those betrothals would fall back, and probably not go through. Again, he's a happy bachelor with a son already. He's probably going to push through for Mary Tudor or nothing.
- When James V dies, he's gonna want to act fast to hold power. He acts as Regent, probably more focused on fighting with the Earl of Arran in the initial years of Mary's regency. If he's been a strong part of James V's court, which I can see, and considering his French connections (he's a literal French nobleman), I can see Marie de Guise siding with him, and betrothing their children together, at least initially.
- A few years later, when the situation is more settled, say in 1545, the two make a deal. The betrothal between the Duke's son and the Queen will be called off, but not only will Albany be officially recognized as her heir, he gets to marry the Queen Dowager. The two marry towards the end of the year and Marie of Guise officially opens communications to have the Queen of Scotland betrothed to the Dauphin.
- The Queen Dowager and the Duke of Albany have 2 children, 2 of which make it through to adulthood: two daughters. The two spend most of their time attempting to end the "Rough Wooing", offering alternatives to the Edward/Mary betrothal, including a potential match between Albany's son by Marie of Bourbon and Elizabeth Tudor.
- When the Scottish/French betrothal is settled, the Duke's eldest daughter with Marie of Guise, let's call her Margaret, goes off with her sister. Let's say she's born early 1547, and Mary I of Scotland leaves for Scotland either later that year, or early the next year. I do like the idea of Mary actually having some family in France with her, and considering her pedigree, Margaret Stewart might be considered for a younger French Prince, or an upper nobleman.
- The Duke's son, who I'm going to call James for simplicity's sake, is going to be a decent catch, and considering his Mary's 2nd heir (after his father), he's gonna want a decent bride. I can see him trying for Elizabeth Tudor, waiting for Mary, or marrying abroad. If he marries abroad, then it'll happen in France. Say, he travels there as an envoy for his father and stepmother, to check on his cousin and his sister, and while there, he becomes betrothed to Eleonore d'Este, Italian Princess and cousin to the royal family. It's entirely possible that she might be in France at a similar time, they'd be around the same age, and she's high enough born that there isn't an issue.
John Stewart, Duke of Albany (b.1484: d.1536) m. Anne de La Tour, Countess of Auvergne (b.1496: d.1524) (a)
1a) Alexander Stewart, Duke of Albany and Count of Auvergne (b.1512) m. Marie of Bourbon (b.1515: d.1538) (a), Marie of Guise (b.1515: d.1560) (a)
1a) James Stewart, Lord Albany (b.1537) m. Eleonore d'Este (b.1537: d.1581) (a)
2a) Margaret Stewart (b.1547)
3a) Antoinette Stewart (b.1549)
4a) Robert Stewart (b.1552: d.1555)
2a) Margaret Stewart (b.1547)
3a) Antoinette Stewart (b.1549)
4a) Robert Stewart (b.1552: d.1555)
I must admit, now that you mention him marrying Margaret Douglas it could make for an interesting match. And might actually have the possibility of succeeding. OTL Maggie was caught up with one of the Howards, and later encouraged her uncle (Henry VIII) to let her marry Lennox. Here, she could just advocate for Albany instead. Yes, Albany was pro-French, but the line has a history of being pro-whatever the royal line isn't - so if James marries a French girl, I could see Albany trying for Mary Tudor or Margaret Douglas instead. It's a stretch, admittedly, but what else is Henry going to do with Maggie? She's not his subject (AFAIK) and she's reasonably far down enough in the English succession (after Henry's own kids, the Brandons, and the royal line of Stewarts) that nobody is going to think in the 1540s that it could lead to any personal unions between England and Scotland at a later point.
Would the French (and Italian) connections of your Albany Stewarts mean they stay stolidly Catholic, rather than being religiously adventurous? Would a potential conversion come up whilst James is pursuing Elizabeth?
Elizabeth was whatever the power of the day dictated she be. She was Protestant under Edward, Catholic under Mary, and God-alone knew what afterwards. So, it would probably depend on when Albany courts Liz. If it's during Edward's reign, he's enough of a prig that he would demand it. If it's in Mary's reign (unlikely, but possible, if only as a way of getting her out of the country and Scotland out of France's loving arms), then no dice. If it's once she becomes queen in her own right, I don't think Liz is going to care much either way: "I will not punish my people for their thoughts, only for their deeds".
As to whether they'll stay Catholic, there were several notable families in France (Bourbons chief amongst them) who went Protestant, and the duchess of Ferrara (Eleonora d'Este's mom) was in contact with Calvin and her husband/son even tried to have the marriage annulled on the grounds of her heresy. So I don't think that marriage to an Italian/Frenchwoman is a way of ensuring they stay Catholic.
VVD0D95
Banned
Oh this is really interesting, so to confirm would be it be Alexander or his son who would end up trying to court Elizabeth?
Suppose it would depend on when the marriage of Regina Virgina takes place
Interesting thoughts - but a few practical points - Albany spent the late teens and early twenties in dispute with Queen Margaret (Tudor) over the regency - at times they sided with each other and at others were opposed.
Once James V came of age though Albany mainly spent his time in France (firstly commanding armies for Francis I and then as a diplomat for both France and Scotland).
So at the time he is considering marrying off his son his main focus will be on the french estates of his wife and his mother (I've already mentioned Albany's niece by marriage Catherine de Medici - she was attractive to the French because in OTL she inherited the entire Auvergne estates of her mother and aunt - who was Albany's wife - in this tl her inheritance is much smaller but a marriage to her cousin would reunite the Auvergne inheritance - she is whilst her cousin Alexander lives not likely to appeal ot Francis I for his second son).
The treaty of 1517 stated that James must marry a French Princess - which was initially why he was reluctant to settle for Marie de Bourbon (though her father Vendome was a prince of the blood) - as we know he eventually married Madeleine of France instead. I doubt Francis I or Vendome would have considered Albany's son a worthy replacement assuming he was still single at that point.
In 1530 ALbany negotiated with Pope Clement for the marriage of James V to Catherine Medici - largely intended to push the French into confirming a marriage of their own for James. Albany might still pursue this but instead on behalf of his own heir and Pope Clement is likely to bite his hands off - he wanted her married and he was aware of her limitations in attracting a high ranking person due to her dynastic background and in this tl she is less wealthy.
John was heir or the nearest heir to the Scots throne for most of his life however he was also aware that his cousin James V was likely to have male issue - his son's attempts to marry are going to be based on his French lands and titles rather than his Stewart blood and closeness to the Scots throne.
Assuming things happen as in otl up to and including James V's sudden death - then Alexander is going to be appointed regent at least (if not King) - by then he is likely to have a young son who he will betrothe to Mary - uniting both lines - now Marie of Guise is perhaps going to favour an alternative (and the French and English are also going to try and gain Mary for the Prince of Wales or the Dauphin respectively) - Alexander's personal wealth is going to come from France to it is likely that he will want to avoid an outright break with the French - so if his son's betrothal is broken then the price of him continuing to support Mary's claim and her marriage to the Dauphin is a French royal bride for his son and guarantees that his line will remain in the succession - the English are going to have less to offer Albany in this scenario - of course if Catherine and Albany are married then the French royal children will be different.
So here is my version
James V dies - Mary is proclaimed Queen in violation of the Parliamentary Act of Robert II settling the succession on his male descendants ahead of the female line.
Under pressure Alexander Duke of Albany is permitted to return to Scotland after the French gain an agreement he will not attempt to take the throne.
Cardinal Beaton negotiates a deal between the Queen Dowager and the Duke - enabling the Duke to assume the regency as the nearest heir to the throne - it is also confirmed that Mary should be betrothed to Albany's eldest son.
Scotland's pro-English party in this tl is much smaller (as Arran is not heir presumptive in this tl) however the English launch an attack to try and force the infant Queen to marry the Prince of Wales instead of Albany's son.
French support is needed so a new deal with Francis is made guaranteeing Mary will instead marry an heir of Francis I - to buy off Albany he is promised a French princess for his heir and guarantees relating to the succession - he agrees reluctantly sure that the situation might indeed change again.
Alexander Stewart
Duke of Albany, Earl of March
Count of Auvergne etc
b1512
m 1531
Catherine Medici
b1519
issue as of 1542
1) John Stewart b1537 betrothed to Mary Queen of Scots in 1543
2) Madeleine Stewart b1539
3) Anne Stewart b 1540
Once James V came of age though Albany mainly spent his time in France (firstly commanding armies for Francis I and then as a diplomat for both France and Scotland).
So at the time he is considering marrying off his son his main focus will be on the french estates of his wife and his mother (I've already mentioned Albany's niece by marriage Catherine de Medici - she was attractive to the French because in OTL she inherited the entire Auvergne estates of her mother and aunt - who was Albany's wife - in this tl her inheritance is much smaller but a marriage to her cousin would reunite the Auvergne inheritance - she is whilst her cousin Alexander lives not likely to appeal ot Francis I for his second son).
The treaty of 1517 stated that James must marry a French Princess - which was initially why he was reluctant to settle for Marie de Bourbon (though her father Vendome was a prince of the blood) - as we know he eventually married Madeleine of France instead. I doubt Francis I or Vendome would have considered Albany's son a worthy replacement assuming he was still single at that point.
In 1530 ALbany negotiated with Pope Clement for the marriage of James V to Catherine Medici - largely intended to push the French into confirming a marriage of their own for James. Albany might still pursue this but instead on behalf of his own heir and Pope Clement is likely to bite his hands off - he wanted her married and he was aware of her limitations in attracting a high ranking person due to her dynastic background and in this tl she is less wealthy.
John was heir or the nearest heir to the Scots throne for most of his life however he was also aware that his cousin James V was likely to have male issue - his son's attempts to marry are going to be based on his French lands and titles rather than his Stewart blood and closeness to the Scots throne.
Assuming things happen as in otl up to and including James V's sudden death - then Alexander is going to be appointed regent at least (if not King) - by then he is likely to have a young son who he will betrothe to Mary - uniting both lines - now Marie of Guise is perhaps going to favour an alternative (and the French and English are also going to try and gain Mary for the Prince of Wales or the Dauphin respectively) - Alexander's personal wealth is going to come from France to it is likely that he will want to avoid an outright break with the French - so if his son's betrothal is broken then the price of him continuing to support Mary's claim and her marriage to the Dauphin is a French royal bride for his son and guarantees that his line will remain in the succession - the English are going to have less to offer Albany in this scenario - of course if Catherine and Albany are married then the French royal children will be different.
So here is my version
James V dies - Mary is proclaimed Queen in violation of the Parliamentary Act of Robert II settling the succession on his male descendants ahead of the female line.
Under pressure Alexander Duke of Albany is permitted to return to Scotland after the French gain an agreement he will not attempt to take the throne.
Cardinal Beaton negotiates a deal between the Queen Dowager and the Duke - enabling the Duke to assume the regency as the nearest heir to the throne - it is also confirmed that Mary should be betrothed to Albany's eldest son.
Scotland's pro-English party in this tl is much smaller (as Arran is not heir presumptive in this tl) however the English launch an attack to try and force the infant Queen to marry the Prince of Wales instead of Albany's son.
French support is needed so a new deal with Francis is made guaranteeing Mary will instead marry an heir of Francis I - to buy off Albany he is promised a French princess for his heir and guarantees relating to the succession - he agrees reluctantly sure that the situation might indeed change again.
Alexander Stewart
Duke of Albany, Earl of March
Count of Auvergne etc
b1512
m 1531
Catherine Medici
b1519
issue as of 1542
1) John Stewart b1537 betrothed to Mary Queen of Scots in 1543
2) Madeleine Stewart b1539
3) Anne Stewart b 1540
Which leaves Henri II unmarried if his OTL wife ends up in Scotland. I know he was considered for Mary Tudor OTL, but practically know of no other betrothals, and I think Mary would be a bit of a stretch - unless Anne Boleyn persuades Henry VIII to send Mary giftwrapped to Paris. Any suggestions for an alternative queen of France if Caterina de Medici is unavailable? And might this ensure the survival of the Valois line (none of Caterina's kids besides Margot inherited her health), so maybe if Henri's wife is a bit healthier we could see some major papillons flitting around?
Yup healthy surviving Valois - verses a Protestant Navarre under Jeanne and her son would be a major butterfly.
Henri was only married to Catherine for money and connections to the Papacy - her wealth would endow a mere second son. It is likely Henri remains unmarried until after his brother's death in 1536 assuming that still happens - but there are options - Charles V's children are too young unless Henri marries very late. Maria of Portugal would be an option (very rich and her mother Eleanor of Austria was Francis I's second wife)
Henri was only married to Catherine for money and connections to the Papacy - her wealth would endow a mere second son. It is likely Henri remains unmarried until after his brother's death in 1536 assuming that still happens - but there are options - Charles V's children are too young unless Henri marries very late. Maria of Portugal would be an option (very rich and her mother Eleanor of Austria was Francis I's second wife)
Okay, Maria of Portugal is on the table. I saw a TL some time back where Henri/François III ended up married to Christine of Denmark. Although in my little thought experiment on Caterina marrying Henry FitzRoy I had Henri marrying Isabella of Poland, with her OTL husband simply marrying her next sister. Are these plausible (whether for Henri as dauphin or as duc d'Orléans)?