WI: Suge Knight murdered Vanilla Ice?

IOTL, Suge Knight once confronted Vanilla Ice, because Ice apparantly stole material from one of his clients. Some versions even claim that Knight held Ice by his ankles off of a 20th-floor balcony. Let's say that Knight drops Ice somehow and he is subsequently charged with murder. Knight in prison might butterfly away Death Row Records, and perhaps even the West Coast-East Coast rivalry. But what would have been the long term impacts on rap music?
 
Well, I imagine it would have huge effects on the development of West Coast hip-hop and rap. Many artists that weren't signed with DRR made their own companies so they wouldn't have to be. As someone has already said, 2Pac won't be around, Dr Dre, Snoop Dogg and Nate Dogg likely get butterflied away. Therefore G-Funk never comes around, the Game is unlikely to also, meaning we have really shitty rap music in this era. Also has an effect on R&B, since TLC was attached to this label.
 
Well, I imagine it would have huge effects on the development of West Coast hip-hop and rap. Many artists that weren't signed with DRR made their own companies so they wouldn't have to be. As someone has already said, 2Pac won't be around, Dr Dre, Snoop Dogg and Nate Dogg likely get butterflied away.

These people will be around, the question is, how big will they get without Death Row? Honestly, probably just as big as they got anyway. Tupac had been signed with Interscope for the beginning of his career, and Andre Young was the co-founder of Death Row, and was probably the real impetus for it's founding. It was in fact Knight's shakedown of Vanilla Ice in the PoD that got them the money. If Van Winkle dies and Knight kills him, that means no Death Row immediately, but there's no reason Young couldn't find the money elsewhere and make Death Row himself while Knight's in prison.

We almost certainly would see the East-Coast-West-Coast rivalry be butterflied away however. No Death Row, or at least no Death Row under Knight would mean no Death Row-Bad Boy feud, which means no Tupac-Wallace feud, and if you don't have those two feuds there's no feud at all. At the very least, any such feud would look very different and probably come later than OTL.

Ultimately this might mean the continued survival of famous rappers like Tupac and Biggie. Death Row would continued to survive and accrue famous acts. Overall a better world for rap I think.
 
These people will be around, the question is, how big will they get without Death Row? Honestly, probably just as big as they got anyway. Tupac had been signed with Interscope for the beginning of his career, and Andre Young was the co-founder of Death Row, and was probably the real impetus for it's founding. It was in fact Knight's shakedown of Vanilla Ice in the PoD that got them the money. If Van Winkle dies and Knight kills him, that means no Death Row immediately, but there's no reason Young couldn't find the money elsewhere and make Death Row himself while Knight's in prison.

We almost certainly would see the East-Coast-West-Coast rivalry be butterflied away however. No Death Row, or at least no Death Row under Knight would mean no Death Row-Bad Boy feud, which means no Tupac-Wallace feud, and if you don't have those two feuds there's no feud at all. At the very least, any such feud would look very different and probably come later than OTL.

Ultimately this might mean the continued survival of famous rappers like Tupac and Biggie. Death Row would continued to survive and accrue famous acts. Overall a better world for rap I think.

There's a timing issue I am not entirely clear on here. Namely, did Knight and Van Winkle's confrontation happen before or after Andre Young was able to extricate himself from Ruthless Records, allegedly with a heavy helping hand from Knight? If "Dr. Dre" is stuck at Ruthless, that's going to have an enormous impact. That situation would mean The Chronic never happens, and consequently Calvin Broadus' career never happens and g-funk never happens. That's going to have a wide reaching impact on Rap Music, which is not entirely predictable. If it happened afterward, Young could just sign with a different label. And in that case, we see The Chronic released on an established label, perhaps minus references to Death Row, unless its used for the rappers in Dre's orbit ITTL rather than being the name of a record label. Perhaps Broadus' career could be prevented if the label refuses to sign Broadus along with Young. But conceivably, The Chronic could simply be released on an established label. Or are you arguing that Andre Young could have found the money to found Death Row Records before December 1991? If so, from where?

In terms of Shakur and Wallace, that really depends on a lot of things which can be easily be butterflied. Assuming Shakur's trial still happens here, and he still goes to prison, it's an open question when Shakur actually leaves prison. Historically it was Knight who paid bail for Shakur while his case was on appeal. Here, Shakur may be stuck in prison. But otherwise, assuming the 1994 shooting still happens, there would still probably be a degree of animosity towards Wallace on the part of Shakur, even without Knight to encourage it.

Shakur seems to have genuinely believed that Wallace and Combs were to some degree responsible for that shooting. The specific accusation differed from an allegation that Wallace and Combs planned the attack, that they knew about it in advance and failed to warn Shakur, and that the shooters were affiliated with Wallace and Bad Boy Records even if Bad Boy per se wasn't behind the attack. Note, I'm not actually saying Shakur was right about any of these accusations, I merely think he did actually believe what he was saying about the incident, and his feud with Wallace and Bad Boy was not merely a matter of him following Suge Knight's orders. If Shakur still believes some form of these sorts of accusations, he's probably still going to be inclined to feud with Wallace with or without Knight. The problem is, without Knight, all else equal, Shakur would have been stuck in prison. But butterflies being what they are, the incident in question might not happen, or Shakur could be killed.
 
Well, I imagine it would have huge effects on the development of West Coast hip-hop and rap. Many artists that weren't signed with DRR made their own companies so they wouldn't have to be. As someone has already said, 2Pac won't be around, Dr Dre, Snoop Dogg and Nate Dogg likely get butterflied away. Therefore G-Funk never comes around, the Game is unlikely to also, meaning we have really shitty rap music in this era. Also has an effect on R&B, since TLC was attached to this label.

Not butterflied away, but Death Row Records certainly is.
 
There's a timing issue I am not entirely clear on here. Namely, did Knight and Van Winkle's confrontation happen before or after Andre Young was able to extricate himself from Ruthless Records, allegedly with a heavy helping hand from Knight? If "Dr. Dre" is stuck at Ruthless, that's going to have an enormous impact.

It's my understanding that Knight's confrontation with Van Winkle in the op happened after Young had already left Ruthless.

Or are you arguing that Andre Young could have found the money to found Death Row Records before December 1991? If so, from where?

I'm arguing that it's possible that he could find the money elsewhere. Where exactly, I'm not sure, but there are ways both legitimate and illegal to get loans for these things.

In terms of Shakur and Wallace, that really depends on a lot of things which can be easily be butterflied. Assuming Shakur's trial still happens here, and he still goes to prison, it's an open question when Shakur actually leaves prison. Historically it was Knight who paid bail for Shakur while his case was on appeal. Here, Shakur may be stuck in prison. But otherwise, assuming the 1994 shooting still happens, there would still probably be a degree of animosity towards Wallace on the part of Shakur, even without Knight to encourage it.

The 1994 shooting is a good three years after the PoD. Either it was just a random event, in which case it's totally plausible it can be butterflied away, or it really was a set up or something with involvement from Bad Boy and Wallace, which again is probably butterflied away without the prior animosity between Knight and Combs. Not to say there's no other way for a feud to start, but if it did it'll probably be different.

But that is something I didn't think about, if Tupac gets himself into trouble again, and there's no reason to think he wouldn't, and he ends up in prison, he's probably going to stay there.
 
It's my understanding that Knight's confrontation with Van Winkle in the op happened after Young had already left Ruthless.



I'm arguing that it's possible that he could find the money elsewhere. Where exactly, I'm not sure, but there are ways both legitimate and illegal to get loans for these things.
Alright, so The Chronic probably still happens here. The only question is whether Young will be able to create Death Row Records before December 1991, or whether he will have to sign with some other label. I'm referring to December as the deadline because that's when Deep Cover was recorded, as far as I know that's the first song Young recorded for Death Row. And I'm assuming that between the recording of that and The Chronic Young will not be able to found Death Row Records. Even if he's at another label, presumably Young will be able to bring Calvin Broadus on with him. All of which means the album remains pretty much the same, minus references to Death Row.

The 1994 shooting is a good three years after the PoD. Either it was just a random event, in which case it's totally plausible it can be butterflied away, or it really was a set up or something with involvement from Bad Boy and Wallace, which again is probably butterflied away without the prior animosity between Knight and Combs. Not to say there's no other way for a feud to start, but if it did it'll probably be different.

But that is something I didn't think about, if Tupac gets himself into trouble again, and there's no reason to think he wouldn't, and he ends up in prison, he's probably going to stay there.

I am basically in agreement here, except to say that even if the shooting was a set up, it probably had nothing to do with the preexisting feud between Combs and Knight as Shakur was not yet affiliated with Knight at the time as far as I am aware.

I think it's questionable how long Shakur would stay in prison. His sentence was 1 1/2 years-4 1/2 years. Assuming no one pays for Shakur's release on appeal, and assuming that appeal fails, the earliest Shakur could be released from prison if I have the math correct would be May 1996. He'd be in prison for at least another seven months.
 
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