WI: Star Wars Trilogies switched?

Didn't see anything on this in the annals of the Search box so...

The oft-quoted concept of George Lucas writing the original series with the prequel series already totally in mind is certainly apocryphal.

However, let's imagine that Lucas conceived of what we know as the prequel trilogy first and an analog to "The Phantom Menace" was released in 1977. Followed by an analog to "Attack of the Clones" in 1980 and an analog to "Revenge of the Sith" in 1983.

Your mission:

1. Describe the differences (i.e. casting, plotlines, critical and box office reception, etc.) in a switched prequel trilogy. An emphasis on alternate casting is desired.

2. Describe Episodes Four, Five, and Six (released 1999, 2002, and 2005 respectively) in as much detail as you wish. Again with an emphasis on casting.

3. The outcome historically of these events. (Alternate careers of actors, crew, etc., even alternate history of gaming and fiction if you feel that Star Wars made that profound of an impact on these things.)

Bonus points if Vader being Luke's father is somehow still kept a secret until the analog of "The Empire Strikes Back." (Shouldn't be too hard, really. Adopted name would make a huge difference here.)

Extra bonus points if many of the same "prequel" actors appear in the "OT" and vice versa.

So let's do this!
 
Honestly, I don't see Star Wars making it past episode one if the plot remains intact... If not for the Star Wars brand and CGI, it would have bombed in 99... take away both and theres no Star Wars.
 
Phantom Menace would have been good... if there had been some massive rewrites and it all was just thrown together in such a slap-dash manner.
 
Phantom Menace would have been good... if there had been some massive rewrites and it all was just thrown together in such a slap-dash manner.

This is kind of where I'm going with this, really.

I'm picturing a Pod Race with the same "blurred out wheels" technology as ANH. Sir Alec Guiness as Qui Gon Jinn (who would play Darth Maul?) C-3PO, R2-D2, and Sidious/Palpatine are played by the same people as OTL.

Bulky Battle Droids replacing Stormtroopers, etc. Yoda is a puppet. Jar Jar is significantly less annoying.

Carrie Fisher as Padme'/Amidala?

I think overall for 1977, it's still a great film (better than OTL's Phantom Menace almost certainly) and an instant cult classic.
 
A Phantom Menace made in '77 would have been a lot better; the problems of the Phantom Menace and the other prequel films almost entirely attributable to the fact that in '99 there was nobody with enough clout to reign Lucas in when he had bad ideas. When he has a bit of oversight (as he did with the Original Trilogy) he can put out some brilliant films.
 
A Phantom Menace made in '77 would have been a lot better; the problems of the Phantom Menace and the other prequel films almost entirely attributable to the fact that in '99 there was nobody with enough clout to reign Lucas in when he had bad ideas. When he has a bit of oversight (as he did with the Original Trilogy) he can put out some brilliant films.

I'm thinking that Han and Chewie or an analog may still need to be in the original (i.e. APM, AOTC, and ROTS) to cool it up some, add some badassedness to the plot, and off-set the sure-to-be-more-aggravating Jar Jar Binks character.
 
Contrary to what he may say, Lucas made everything up as it came along, and did not lay out a master vision. So any Star Wars prequel deal that would have come would have been totally different. And frankly, it'd probably just be another version of the OT.
 
Contrary to what he may say, Lucas made everything up as it came along, and did not lay out a master vision. So any Star Wars prequel deal that would have come would have been totally different. And frankly, it'd probably just be another version of the OT.

I'm trying to imagine what the effects of the Prequel (or something remotely similar, it doesn't have to be exact, because that would be ASB) coming to him first would have been, I outlined that in the OP.

Thoughts?
 
Had the prequel trilogy been made in 1977-1983 there would have been much less battle scenes.

Also the battle droid thing would be tricky without CGI.

Would have to be some bulky costumes......

And the lightsaber battles would have been much less intense.

On the other hand all of this would have been much greater in ANH, TESB, ROTJ with all that CGI.
 
Had the prequel trilogy been made in 1977-1983 there would have been much less battle scenes.

Also the battle droid thing would be tricky without CGI.

Would have to be some bulky costumes......

And the lightsaber battles would have been much less intense.

On the other hand all of this would have been much greater in ANH, TESB, ROTJ with all that CGI.

I would have to agree. Alot of the Scenes would be much more difficult to do without CGI.

I don't think it would be Impossible, but It would be difficult, and the results might not be enough to push forward with the Rest of the First trilogy, and even think of doing the Second.
 
I'm trying to imagine what the effects of the Prequel (or something remotely similar, it doesn't have to be exact, because that would be ASB) coming to him first would have been, I outlined that in the OP.

Thoughts?
I think if it were anything remotely the same, it would be ASB.

You could have it be the Adventures of Anakin Skywalker, and then have Ani become evil for a second trilogy, but it won't be anything like the OTL Prequels. It would likely be closer to the original Star Wars, or based on one of the original drafts, with Ani destroying some evil force. He might also not become evil by the end; in fact, that's a bad gamble. You'd be ending on a downer note, and making people wait 20 some years for a continuation.

Anyway, it'd be important to note the quality of the second trilogy would suffer anyway. The George Lucas that did the original trilogy was like this 20 something guy who had been an angsty teenager trying to find himself, and out of that you got a story of a farm boy who broke out of a small town life to become something grand, and who went through this darkness to overcome great odds. That angst gave rise to art. The George Lucas of the Prequel era was a guy who was middle aged to old, who had the reigns of a multimillion dollar franchise empire, who was secure, and who had a family and kids. There was no adversity or angst anymore; no taking on Nixon or 'Nam. And so there was no art. That's why the prequel trilogy stunk. That why the revisions to the original were clunky or embarrassing. Because George Lucas was no longer an artist. I mean, we all start off as rebellious teenagers, but we all also end up as the fat middle aged people with lawn gnomes and singing fish on our walls.
 
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Das_Colonel

Banned
Honestly, I don't see Star Wars making it past episode one if the plot remains intact... If not for the Star Wars brand and CGI, it would have bombed in 99... take away both and theres no Star Wars.

I used to think that, until I sat down and actually watched TPM again for the first time in 5 years. I could not believe how much more 'real' it seemed than AoTC and RoTS.

AoTC and RoTS by comparison are just soulless CGI for most of the movies. and Anakin's portrayal in AoTC just melts my eyes for how whiny and annoying he is. IMHO the only thing that saved it were the clones themselves.

Jar Jar is far easier to take if you just chill out and enjoy the movie without giant expectations. Unfortunately I just can't say the same for the other two.
 
Hopefully Harrison Ford still lands a role in the ATL films; by some accounts Ford did a lot to improve the dialogue by heavily revising/ad-libbing in his own dialogue, and encouraging the rest of the cast to do the same. The OTL prequels showed us what happens when nobody tosses out Lucas' less than stellar dialogue.
 
Didn't see anything on this in the annals of the Search box so...

The oft-quoted concept of George Lucas writing the original series with the prequel series already totally in mind is certainly apocryphal.

However, let's imagine that Lucas conceived of what we know as the prequel trilogy first and an analog to "The Phantom Menace" was released in 1977. Followed by an analog to "Attack of the Clones" in 1980 and an analog to "Revenge of the Sith" in 1983.
Let me first of all say that this is ASB. Totally, completely ASB. Utterly implausible. Could only occur at one of the realities at the very end of the probability spectrum, right between the Discworld and Middle-Earth.

But what the hell, it sounds like fun. Let's go. :cool:

Your mission:

1. Describe the differences (i.e. casting, plotlines, critical and box office reception, etc.) in a switched prequel trilogy. An emphasis on alternate casting is desired.

[...]

Extra bonus points if many of the same "prequel" actors appear in the "OT" and vice versa.

So let's do this!
The Phantom Menace, 1977. Bear in mind that "Star Wars" was originally the title of ANH specifically (with the overall series intended to be called "The Adventures of Luke Skywalker"), so this movie will be called just "The Phantom Menace"... or possibly "The Adventures of Anakin Skywalker: The Phantom Menace".

To start with, Carrie Fisher is the obvious choice to play Queen Amidala. She's the female lead, the same as Leia in ANH, and their characters are similar too.

If this really is the "Adventures of Anakin Skywalker", then he'd effectively be one of our viewpoint characters. We'd have to get to him quicker than in OTL's TPM, rather than first meeting him about 45 minutes into the movie. Additionally, he'd probably be 12 years old rather than 9 just to make damn sure he can act. The actor would, of course, be an unknown. And I'd also like to point out that if he's the lead, we can expect him to return for the sequels rather than do the 10-year timeskip.

Harrison Ford would be in the movie. That's a given. Lucas wanted him to have a major role, so he'd have a major role. I forsee two possibilities, either of which would have drastic implications for the plot:
1. Ford plays Obi-Wan. This would necessitate a complete changing of young Obi-Wan's character, from a stiff-necked straightlaced sort of fellow to someone more suited to Ford, and quite probably from being Qui-Gon's apprentice to being his equal partner (as Ford would be 33 years old: too old to play an "apprentice"). Given that Ford didn't want to commit to 3 movies like the rest of ANH's leads, it's quite possible that Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon would effectively switch roles: the younger and more mavericky Obi-Wan picks Anakin as someone to train as a Jedi, then dies at the end after getting his older, more straightlaced master/partner Qui-Gon to swear to train Anakin instead.
2. Ford plays the much-expanded role of Captain Panaka. With Panaka as a main character, it seems to me that there'd be too many main characters: the logical thing to do would be to eliminate the basically superfluous character of Obi-Wan and let Qui-Gon survive at the end. Remember, at this point Lucas wouldn't have even known if The Phantom Menace would break even, let alone be a massive success and get a sequel. This is just pragmatism.
Of the two possibilities, I prefer option 1. It sticks to the overall story of the PT better. Hell, you might as well switch Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon's names too, especially considering this:

Casting of the older Jedi: a middle-aged actor, possibly around 50 or so. Alec Guinness is too old, being 62... but Toshiro Mifune (the original choice for Obi-Wan) is 56, so he's a possibility. Given that the name "Obi-Wan" was meant to sound sort-of Japanese, giving this name to the older Jedi makes sense.

Casting of the younger Jedi: assuming he's not played by Ford, and also assuming he's not eliminated in favour of Panaka, the character would be in his mid-twenties: young enough to be the apprentice here, old enough to be Anakin's mentor in the sequels. As tempting as it is to immediately say "Mark Hamill!" I have to point out that the character is a very uptight sort of person and not the "Luke" of the story (that'd be Anakin), so he'd be played by someone completely different. Oh, and let's call him Qui-Gon. Or even Quigon, with no hyphen.

Jar Jar Binks is an important one. It occurs to me that Jar Jar, if he was written right, would essentially fill the same role as C-3P0 in ANH: the bewildered outsider comic-relief who is caught up in events much greater than him, and who essentially ends up "telling the story" of the whole saga. Depending on his design (as he'd have to be a guy in a rubber suit) it's entirely possible he'd even be played by Anthony Daniels. Still, he'd almost definitely be voiced by someone else: Daniels' voice fits 3P0 very well, but wouldn't fit Jar Jar at all.

Speaking of which, this effectively renders C-3P0 pointless in the story: notice how throughout the prequel trilogy he never does anything, and is only there because he has to be? However, if they wanted to keep the idea of Anakin building a droid, perhaps he is building an astromech droid called R2-D2 instead?

Now, let's talk villains. An obvious choice is Peter Cushing to play Senator Palpatine/Darth Sidious -- that's easy. Darth Maul, on the other hand, is tricky. Assuming his design is the same or similar, he can't be played by David Prowse or Peter Mayhew: the actor would almost definitely have to be a professional stuntman trained in swordfighting. You can't get Bob Anderson to do it either: Maul still has to look intimidating, and Anderson at the time was 54 years old and bore a strong resemblance to Harry Dean Stanton. It'll have to be a new guy.

So, what else can I say about the story, aside from the changes mentioned above? Well, for starters, if it does feature the Podrace at all it'd be drastically cut down: they simply wouldn't have the cash for those kinds of effects, even with models and bluescreen. Ditto the underwater-monsters sequence. Also, having Anakin as the hero and Jar-Jar as a viewpoint character would result in the whole beginning of the movie being restructured: perhaps it would eliminate the whole opening sequence on the Droid Control Ship and begin with the invasion of Naboo, followed by Jar Jar's first encounter with Obi-Wan and (possibly) Quigon, and would first show Anakin inside of twenty minutes. If the story can't be sped up that much, then maybe they could cut over to Tatooine for some introductory scenes with Anakin before the other main characters land. Money issues will probably also mean the movie's climax would be scaled down dramatically: combine the Gungan battle and the Duel of the Fates with the assault on the palace (the Jedi can fight Maul through the palace, rather than some weird unexplained place with no guardrails). And speaking of the climax -- if Anakin is the hero he'd need to be taken seriously, which means that he flies in the mission against the Droid Control Ship on purpose and destroys it on purpose, Luke-style.

Wow, that was fun. I know it's nowhere near finished but it's half past midnight now. To be continued, definitely.
 
Hopefully Harrison Ford still lands a role in the ATL films; by some accounts Ford did a lot to improve the dialogue by heavily revising/ad-libbing in his own dialogue, and encouraging the rest of the cast to do the same. The OTL prequels showed us what happens when nobody tosses out Lucas' less than stellar dialogue.

Problem was that Ford was just a maintenance guy who was called in to read lines with Carrie Fisher. He was just fixing a door and someone pulled him aside. They were impressed and the rest is history.

Something similar has to happen ITTL.

Here are some of the original focii for the scripts: http://starwarz.com/starkiller/
 
A Phantom Menace made in '77 would have been a lot better; the problems of the Phantom Menace and the other prequel films almost entirely attributable to the fact that in '99 there was nobody with enough clout to reign Lucas in when he had bad ideas. When he has a bit of oversight (as he did with the Original Trilogy) he can put out some brilliant films.

Pretty much, Lucas in prequel time turned into M. Night Shamalan after the loosening of his restrictions, normally Lucas had been saved by editors and vetoes of poor ideas, Episode I they took the leash off and we got some rather shitty results.

The profit motives behind Episode I will not be present since Star Wars is not an established trilogy which leads me to the highly amusing conclusion that Episode I might in fact come to be viewed as better than the next episodes.

If we keep the basic plots intact Star Wars' special effects won't be as well-remembered as they are today. Remember that the original trilogy largely avoided urban/high-tech areas with the exception of Bespin (which has lasted well thanks to DVD remastering and such) but the prequels had a preponderance of high-tech places: Coruscant, Kamino, Mygeeto, etc. They aren't going to look as impressive with 70s-80s special effects, Bespin will be a lot more glitzy and modern if they decide on a facelift though.
 
The original "SW" trilogy was so popular because it was lighthearted and escapist and happy in a time where such thing were in short supply.

The prequel trilogy with its Downer Ending and tragedy would not be as popular.
 
The original "SW" trilogy was so popular because it was lighthearted and escapist and happy in a time where such thing were in short supply.

The prequel trilogy with its Downer Ending and tragedy would not be as popular.

I agree partly with this. If the downer ending is because the guy you've seen as the hero throughout the movie becomes a bad guy, then people are going to be very mad.

However, this can be changed if he isn't seen as the initial hero, but only one of the good guys.

First, make Obi-Wan the main viewpoint character. Make Anakin closer to his age, so they can actually work together in action. The story would be "The Adventures of Obi-Wan", with Anakin as a close associate -- very powerful in the force, but less experienced than Obi-Wan, so he takes on the role of the 'junior partner'.

Okay, Zeroth, the name of the movie can't be "The Phantom Menace"... too many people would go into it expecting a horror story. It must not have words like "Jedi", "Sith" or "Naboo" in it, because people will just laugh. It must be something like "Star Wars", so people know that it's a space opera. Of course, if there's no War in the plot that won't make much sense. How about something like "Star Quest"?

Obi-Wan is not a Padawan, so get rid of Qui-Jon. Instead, Obi-wan is a newly 'made' Jedi, just out of the academy, being sent on his first mission, to escort the Queen Amidila to her home.

For some reason, Obi-Wan must travel to Tatooine for an important plot-point (not just because his ship is falling apart). Say, he needs to pick up some info about what's going on with the Trade Federation from the Hutts. While there, a young, slightly rebellious low-level member of some crime lord's crew makes himself known, and Obi-Wan realizes that he is rather strong in the force. He brings him along with the intention of bringing him back to Coruscant when the mission is over.

There is no real focus on Anakin's life, except what's necessary to show him as a rebellious but good-natured lad who is ready to get into the academy. There are no references to midi-chlorians or virgin births, etc. Not that something like these might not come up in the second movie, who knows.

We're not going to get anything about "He's too old to become a Jedi," and yet still become one, because he's not a Mary Sue character. It's going to be perfectly normal for people living on the outskirts of the galaxy with some force talent to enter the academy later.

As ColeMercury pointed out, Anakin's role in the adventure is more active, not accidental. He is told to stay put because he's a newbie, but naturally he wants to prove himself and take a more active role, so he doesn't stay put, he takes the ship out and destroys the Droid Control himself while Obi-Wan takes care of some much more important battle down on Naboo.

Anakin's role gets bigger in the second and third movies, although Obi-Wan remains the primary POV. Any hints of his turning to the dark side in the second movie are extremely subtle, and will only be noticed with the hindsight of having seen the third movie. We have no idea he's working so closely with Senator Palpatine, and it isn't even completely obvious that Palpatine is the bad guy -- Darth Sidious is only ever shown in sillouhette when he's talking to the known bad guys.

It is only in the third movie when Anakin makes his face-heel turn that it becomes obvious that they've been building him up to be a bad guy, and that Palpatine is indeed the villain.

If the series has made it this far, then it's obvious that it's making money, so Lucas can afford to have a cliffhanger here, where the bad guys win due to a major character's betrayal and the good guys barely make it out a live. Anakin's character is much deeper, and we are truly horrified by his change, but we can easily see how it happened if you think about it.

There needs to be at least a fourth movie, and soon after, to resolve the cliffhanger of the third, and the audience can't wait twenty years, and they can't expect the plot to be twenty years later with the main actors wearing make up to make them look older, and absolutely nothing done about the problems in the meantime.

What happens next? We can't jump forward twenty years, because the bad guys are still in charge, and the good guys must fight them. Obi-Wan, who's been the main character throughout, can't turn tail and run off to live alone in the desert, hoping that someone else will come forward to fight the Emperor later. He must be working as a leader in the rebellion.

I don't know what that fourth movie will look like, it won't be A New Hope... unless it turns out that Anakin's twins were fathered long before he was a Jedi, while he was still on Tattooine, but then how does Leia become a princess, and how do you keep it a secret from the audience that Luke is his son?
 
The original "SW" trilogy was so popular because it was lighthearted and escapist and happy in a time where such thing were in short supply.

The prequel trilogy with its Downer Ending and tragedy would not be as popular.

Well also it was kind of a dig at certain social problems of the time, Star Wars would be seen more as paralleling certain issues (government corruption, intractable military conflicts, etc.) than it would be about both escaping issues for a fun adventure but also in giving people a hero to root for.
 
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