WI: Stalin was Muslim

As the title said, what would have happen if Stalin was a Muslim.
Lets just wave a few butterflies away, and say that he still goes into power like the OTL.
what would have how would this affect History
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
It wouldn't. Stalin was born Orthodox, was educated in a seminary, and still gave up religion (ironically because he studied in a seminary). He can't be a practicing Muslim either because the Bolsheviks would 100% neh-heh-hever allow a believer to be in charge.

If Stalin is a Muslim, he cannot become head of the USSR, which (among other things) prevents him from being the Stalin we all know and love (for his moustache). If the Bolsheviks allow a believer to take power, then they're no longer Bolsheviks.

There are going to have to be some mighty PODs for Stalin's religion (whatever it may be) to have an impact on anything.
 
It wouldn't. Stalin was born Orthodox, was educated in a seminary, and still gave up religion (ironically because he studied in a seminary). He can't be a practicing Muslim either because the Bolsheviks would 100% neh-heh-hever allow a believer to be in charge.

If Stalin is a Muslim, he cannot become head of the USSR, which (among other things) prevents him from being the Stalin we all know and love (for his moustache). If the Bolsheviks allow a believer to take power, then they're no longer Bolsheviks.

There are going to have to be some mighty PODs for Stalin's religion (whatever it may be) to have an impact on anything.
Wait but.... Didn't he make a athist relegion followed by millions in his country
 
Stalin softend up a little on religion during the 2nd WW (only for tactical reasons of course): Had a holy Icon be carried through the streets of besieged Leningrad, reopend churches, allowed a new patriarch to be elected...
If he had been a former muslim he might have contemplated calling for a Djihad.

More serious: people raised very religious often retain parts of their religious morals after becoming atheists.
So a former muslim Stalin might have tried to combat alcoholism or opposed female soldiers.
 
Stalin softend up a little on religion during the 2nd WW (only for tactical reasons of course): Had a holy Icon be carried through the streets of besieged Leningrad, reopend churches, allowed a new patriarch to be elected...
If he had been a former muslim he might have contemplated calling for a Djihad.

More serious: people raised very religious often retain parts of their religious morals after becoming atheists.
So a former muslim Stalin might have tried to combat alcoholism or opposed female soldiers.

Actually, the Soviet Union was much less cracking down on the Muslim clergy in the respective parts of the country - mostly because they were much easier co-opted, or at least kept quiet, than the Orthodox clergy.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Wait but.... Didn't he make a athist relegion followed by millions in his country
It wasn't atheist, but it was a religion, or close enough as to make little if any difference. Just as in Christianity where the Father is the higher power and Jesus was his physical manifestation on earth, Stalin was a messianic figure who was the vessel of the higher power i.e. The People's will. Stalin was, to the Soviets, God on earth. Icons were made for the guy by the Church. That's how divine the guy was.
Stalin softend up a little on religion during the 2nd WW (only for tactical reasons of course): Had a holy Icon be carried through the streets of besieged Leningrad, reopend churches, allowed a new patriarch to be elected...
If he had been a former muslim he might have contemplated calling for a Djihad.
No he wouldn't have. Again, this completely violates Bolshevik doctrine. Just because Stalin eased up on religion during the War doesn't mean that he was permitting or even advocating a holy war. He just did it because it was part of Russian national soul and it would increase morale. He may allow Muslims to refer to it as a jihad just as he allowed priests to refer to it as a holy war, but he himself will 100% not declare it war that has anything to do with religion.

We're also harboring the illusion that a former Muslim could rise to the top spot in the Soviet Union. The leader would have had to have been a former practitioner of Orthodoxy. Being a heretical Mohammedan was only one step above being a Jew. No, the leader had to be 100% Russian for the people to accept him. And before people mention how Stalin was Georgian, I'd like to point out that Stalin's own kids didn't even know he was Georgian for a quite some time. Svetlana learned it from her brother, who said that "Apparently father used to be Georgian." or something to that effect.
More serious: people raised very religious often retain parts of their religious morals after becoming atheists.
So a former muslim Stalin might have tried to combat alcoholism or opposed female soldiers.
Stalin was raised in a very serious religious household. His mother was extremely devout, priests were often at his home and paid for most of his education, he was educated in a seminary. Female soldiers played a really big and undeniable part in the Revolution. Not allowing them to be part of the armed forces when the Soviet Union was teetering on the brink of total annihilation would have been suicidal. Even the most misogynistic chauvinist would at least see them as more bodies to throw at the Germans. And there is Islamic precedent for female soldiers anyways.

The Soviets tried their hand at prohibition. It failed miserably.
 


We're also harboring the illusion that a former Muslim could rise to the top spot in the Soviet Union. The leader would have had to have been a former practitioner of Orthodoxy. Being a heretical Mohammedan was only one step above being a Jew. No, the leader had to be 100% Russian for the people to accept him. And before people mention how Stalin was Georgian, I'd like to point out that Stalin's own kids didn't even know he was Georgian for a quite some time. Svetlana learned it from her brother, who said that "Apparently father used to be Georgian." or something to that effect.

It would hurt his career to be muslim born, but kill it?
Are there specific books/events you base your theory on?
Of the soviet leaders Lenin was of mixed ethnicity, Chrustschow was an Ukrainian (I admit thats not very diffrent from Russian but still not 100%), Breschnjew was an Ukrainian that later changed his ethnicity to Russian.
And keep in mind that Stalin was not elected/choosen to be the big leader.
In the begining he was a bureaucrat that Lenin installed as General Secretary after he had his public fall out with Trotzki over the unions and grew weary / distrustful of the old aristocratic-theorist leadership.
Later the Sinojew clique and the rightist left him in that position of power (and allowed him to expand it) because they needed him to do their legwork in the fight against Trotzki.
He used his power to get croonies into the important positions and gradualy outlaw his former allies.
Only after he had total controll, he created a public cult around himself and presented himslef to the public as glorious leader. (before he was only the humble servant of the party)
 
And before people mention how Stalin was Georgian, I'd like to point out that Stalin's own kids didn't even know he was Georgian for a quite some time. Svetlana learned it from her brother, who said that "Apparently father used to be Georgian." or something to that effect.

Well, then they were probably the only ones who didn't realize that. To the end of his days Stalin spoke with a thick Georgian accent - much more pronounced than the Austrian-German accent of Schwarzenegger, for example.
 
Well, then they were probably the only ones who didn't realize that. To the end of his days Stalin spoke with a thick Georgian accent - much more pronounced than the Austrian-German accent of Schwarzenegger, for example.

Quite so. The Caucasian Clique was no big secret.

That said, Georgians were far longer part of Russia's establishment than Muslims. The only "muslim-Stalin" I can see is maybe a non-religious person of recent Tatar descent, Tatars being far more integrated than Central Asian or Caucasian muslims.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
It would hurt his career to be muslim born, but kill it?

He had to be Russian, and Russians aren't Muslims (in the minds of the Soviet populace).

Are there specific books/events you base your theory on?
Several biographies on Stalin and multiple courses on Russian history in college, including a colloquium devoted to examining Stalin himself.
Of the soviet leaders Lenin was of mixed ethnicity
How many commoners do you think knew that?
Chrustschow was an Ukrainian (I admit thats not very diffrent from Russian but still not 100%), Breschnjew was an Ukrainian that later changed his ethnicity to Russian.
Like you said, Ukrainians aren't very different from Russians. They used to be called and called themselves "Little Russians" even after the Civil War.
And keep in mind that Stalin was not elected/choosen to be the big leader.
In the begining he was a bureaucrat that Lenin installed as General Secretary after he had his public fall out with Trotzki over the unions and grew weary / distrustful of the old aristocratic-theorist leadership.
Later the Sinojew clique and the rightist left him in that position of power (and allowed him to expand it) because they needed him to do their legwork in the fight against Trotzki.
He used his power to get croonies into the important positions and gradualy outlaw his former allies.
Only after he had total controll, he created a public cult around himself and presented himslef to the public as glorious leader. (before he was only the humble servant of the party)
Doesn't matter whether Stalin was elected or not. He had to be seen as a legitimate ruler in the people's eyes, and legitimate rulers were Russian. Period. Even non-Russians by and large accepted this. Trotsky, for example, couldn't have held on to the top spot for long even if he got it because the populace isn't going to take orders from a filthy zhid (as he would be seen).
Well, then they were probably the only ones who didn't realize that. To the end of his days Stalin spoke with a thick Georgian accent - much more pronounced than the Austrian-German accent of Schwarzenegger, for example.
By the child analogy I meant to convey that most Soviet citizens had no idea that Stalin wasn't Russian. The rule of those non-potentates who knew was not to talk about Stalin's ethnicity. And he rarely delivered speeches and I actually can't recall whether or not he made many (if any) radio addresses, and only a few film appearances. In all of the other official movies he was played by big, strapping Russian men with Russian accents. Not that the question of Stalin's heritage ever came up; people just assumed he was Russian.

Obviously I bungled this and should have been clearer :eek:
 
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Eh, Stalin-era politburo was full of various "minorities". Party preached internationalism. I find your theory rather shaky, Wolfpaw.
 
In tsarist Russia, rulers needed not to be "Russians". Catherine the Great was born German.
However, a Tatar descent is possible. Tatars were integrated in the Russian society, including prominent posts, from a long time, much more (and better) than Georgians. Complete integration implied conversion, though (there was a Christian Tatar vassal state of Moscow for some time, IIRC).
Or he could be a from a Muslim Georgian family. But i guess that his formative years in the seminary were decisive for his individual development, so that a Muslim "Stalin" would be a completely different person.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Eh, Stalin-era politburo was full of various "minorities". Party preached internationalism. I find your theory rather shaky, Wolfpaw.
Doesn't matter how many minorities are in the Politburo. It's the leader who needs to be Russian. And then there's the fact that Stalin ordered the abandonment of Internationalism in favor of Socialism in One Country. And do you honestly believe that the Party spouting some line about how everybody was equal no matter their ethnicity just got rid of bigotry? Hell, state-sponsored oppression couldn't even get rid of religion, much less the numerous ethnic hatreds that litter Eastern Europe.
In tsarist Russia, rulers needed not to be "Russians". Catherine the Great was born German.
Again, how many peasants do you think knew that? The nobles were pretty much the only people who knew about it, but they were fine because she emancipated them. They're pretty much the equivalent of those Communist potentates who knew Stalin was Georgian. Why do anything to rock the boat if you're the one benefiting?

By the time they were shot the Romanovs were ethnically more German than they were Russian. How many Russians knew that? Yes they knew Alexandra was German (and they loathed her for it), but the Tsar was 100% Russian in their eyes. What else could he be? He was the Tsar Batushka, the Little Father, God's intermediary between Russia and Heaven. What else could he be but Russian?
However, a Tatar descent is possible. Tatars were integrated in the Russian society, including prominent posts, from a long time, much more (and better) than Georgians. Complete integration implied conversion, though (there was a Christian Tatar vassal state of Moscow for some time, IIRC).
Tatars were integrated into Russian society, yes, but they were still viewed as very, very distinct. Even conversion to Christianity and intermarriage with non-Tatars (rare though both of those things were) by no means guaranteed accepted assimilation and typically did not bring it. Again the leader needs to be of both Orthodox and Russian background.
Or he could be a from a Muslim Georgian family. But i guess that his formative years in the seminary were decisive for his individual development, so that a Muslim "Stalin" would be a completely different person.
Exactly. People seem to be missing that Stalin being a Muslim changes Stalin completely. It's one thing to change a character's career path or life course, but changing their cultural background and upbringing warps them beyond recognition.

But then, I believe handwavium was used in this scenario, so that doesn't really matter :p
 
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Tatars were integrated into Russian society, yes, but they were still viewed as very, very distinct. Even conversion to Christianity and intermarriage with non-Tatars (rare though both of those things were) by no means guaranteed accepted assimilation and typically did not bring it.


Eh? Russian upper classes absorbed those of their neighbours with no real problem at all. They tended to Russify rather thoroughly but it was by no means rare, rather the opposite.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Eh? Russian upper classes absorbed those of their neighbours with no real problem at all. They tended to Russify rather thoroughly but it was by no means rare, rather the opposite.
Upper classes, yes. Noble is noble is noble. Provided, of course, that they convert to Christianity.

I was referring to peasants, not the aristocracy, though I should have made that clearer.

Though that doesn't really matter since those members of the upper classes that didn't flee would be and were more or less annihilated by the Revolutionaries.

This is all beside the point, though, since none of it has to do with Stalin since his family's not part of the upper classes of Russian society.
 
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I think the main reason that the party functionaries (who should know he was Georgian, that was the main reason the made him PC for Nationalities) overlooked Stalin beeing Georgian was that he acted more Russian than the Russians (i.e. surpressing any attempt of the Caucasus party sections to make an independent policy, socialism in 1 country ~= Russian imperialism).

So to be accept inspite beeing a (former) muslim he might have to act as un-muslim as possible. (so yes my first post was largely wrong)

And he would have to / could have hiden his muslim ancestors from the general public just as he hid (according to Wolfpaw) beeing Georgian and Lenin hid the fact that he looked a little asian on earlier photographs (picture).

And I still think that wolfpaw is a little to strict on that "a jew/muslim could never be leader" thing.
During the civil war the Whites did play the antisemtic card very heavy and always depicted Trotzky to be the leader of the Bolsheviks but lost anyway.
If you can take the land away from the peasants, plunder the most holy shrines, kill half the party (no exaggeration) and send the wifes of leading goverment members to Siberia you should be powerful enough to force people to ignore what religion your parents had.

170px-Lenin-1895-mugshot.jpg
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
And he would have to / could have hiden his muslim ancestors from the general public just as he hid (according to Wolfpaw) beeing Georgian and Lenin hid the fact that he looked a little asian on earlier photographs (picture).
Most people didn't see those early photographs. Besides, a lot of Russians look like that due to Tatars entering the Slavic gene pool centuries ago. Looking marginally Asiatic doesn't really imply anything.

During the civil war the Whites did play the antisemtic card very heavy and always depicted Trotzky to be the leader of the Bolsheviks but lost anyway.
I don't have to tell you that things were astronomically different during the Civil War and after the stabilization of Soviet rule. During the Civil War people knew Lenin was in charge. A lot of Trotsky's soldiers didn't actually like him due to his being a Jew (along with being a pedantic, arrogant superdouche), but the man was a kickass general and they knew that and they were winning because of it. When your choices are following a Jew or getting slaughtered by the enemy (Whites didn't like taking prisoners), you follow the Jew.

In peacetime, however, when you're not faced with the omnipresent threat of death on the battlefield..."Well, we don't need that filthy Jew anymore, so let's throw him out!" I'm not saying Trotsky wouldn't have been able to continue as a powerful player in the Soviet administration, but he could never be the top dog.

The exact same thing goes for Muslims, even though they weren't as hated as Jews were in the former Russian Empire.

If you can take the land away from the peasants, plunder the most holy shrines, kill half the party (no exaggeration) and send the wifes of leading goverment members to Siberia you should be powerful enough to force people to ignore what religion your parents had.
Forcing them to ignore it doesn't legitimize you. In fact, it actually makes you seem more illegitimate and more evil because you're actively attacking a religion that wasn't your own while persecuting Islam in Central Asia far less.

And again, this goes back to the very deep cultural conscience of the Russians. Russians are not Muslims. Russians are Orthodox. Muslims are evil aliens who worship the Devil and who raped and pillaged and tyrannized Russia for centuries. You honestly think common Russians will be okay with somebody of the same background get into power? Parallels are going to spring up the second Stalin comes to power; they'll see it as the return of the Tatar Yoke.
 
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