Wolfpaw
Banned
Stalin was many things; insane is certainly not one of them.
Because these men were as Stalinist as Stalin, if not more so.
WI Stalin was assassinated in 1944?
- Thread starter Don_Giorgio
- Start date
I disagre,, Stalin was nutz enough to make guys like Nikita Krushcev look downright rotarian-like.
Wolfpaw
Banned
Khrushchev was a blustering, pugnacious, impetuous blowhard who did quite a bit to hide his own blood-soaked record. He was Kaganovich's protege, after all.
And I fail to see what sets Stalin apart as being "insane." The man was plenty sane, frighteningly so.
Stalin was seeing conspiracies everywhere... He purged almost the entire army leadership because of that... How can this be a sign of sanity?
Agree to disagree, given the man's agressivly paranoid leanins and ravings. Their's a reason he had a proteje like Beria and why if Stalin went away, A dude like Molotov would make Beria into worm chow.
Wolfpaw
Banned
The fact that a big chunk of the Army leadership really didn't like him didn't help...Tukhachevsky and Stalin loathed one another. The fact that the Party was still pretty factional made things worse on that end.
Stalin's aim was very simple: neutralizing any and all opposition, which he accomplished.
Purging is endemic to bloody, macho, perma-revolution preached by Bolshevism. Stalin continued long-standing "shoot first, interrogate later" practices begun by tsars and continued under Lenin.
Wolfpaw
Banned
The Party establishment had a longstanding distrust of the military high-command stretching back to Trotsky's days at the helm (the specter of a "Red Napoleon" loomed very large in Bolshevik fears).
And ravings? Eh, they were no more bloodthirsty and paranoid (and often a good deal less so) than many speeches given by his subordinates, who were often calling for more blood.
Beria wasn't Stalin's protege, he was his creature. A protege is trained to survive and continue without the Master; Beria was dead within 9 months of Soso's death, and even then only thanks to the good graces of Malenkov.
You know what? I think I am out ofmy depth here using popular nonmenclature as a basis for my arguments, so I am bowing out. I learned a lot, but I am out, cheers and smiles
Wolfpaw
Banned
Cheers and smilescheers and smiles
(I'd highly recommend Sebag-Montefiore's Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar if you've a further interest in the topic.)
I'll see if I can find it.Cheers and smiles
(I'd highly recommend Sebag-Montefiore's Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar if you've a further interest in the topic.)
Otis R. Needleman
Banned
Believe there will be no slackening of the war effort. The Soviets smell German blood and they are going to get every drop, just as in OTL.
I see the new leadership as ruling initially by a troika or a committee. One thing these men will make very sure of, having survived Stalin's 30's purges, is that nobody is ever going to have that sort of power again. Just as in OTL. Who would be on the committee? Good question. Molotov? Probably. Zhukov? Maybe, but this means he stays in Moscow and oversees military operations through the Stavka. Khrushchev? Not at this time ITTL. Mikoyan? Malenkov?
After the war is over, still see the USSR wanting to develop that band of buffer countries. Not sure how much changes there, but I like to think a Berlin Airlift won't be needed. De-Stalinization will come sooner ITTL because Stalin left earlier.
I see the new leadership as ruling initially by a troika or a committee. One thing these men will make very sure of, having survived Stalin's 30's purges, is that nobody is ever going to have that sort of power again. Just as in OTL. Who would be on the committee? Good question. Molotov? Probably. Zhukov? Maybe, but this means he stays in Moscow and oversees military operations through the Stavka. Khrushchev? Not at this time ITTL. Mikoyan? Malenkov?
After the war is over, still see the USSR wanting to develop that band of buffer countries. Not sure how much changes there, but I like to think a Berlin Airlift won't be needed. De-Stalinization will come sooner ITTL because Stalin left earlier.
Hyperion
Banned
I don't know about how Molotov personally viewed Beria, but in OTL after Stalin died, Beria was arrested and executed within a few months time himself.
If Stalin is killed in 1944, I don't see Beria living past Christmas of 1945 at the latest.
More than likely though with Stalin dead, and the Red Army likely to have Beria and some of his cronies shot at an appropriate time in the future, I could see Molotov at least taking over as the interm leader of the USSR.
Actually, Having read Simon Seabag-Montefiore's In the court of the Red Tsar, Beria taking over could well have led to a much more liberal Soviet Union, probably closer to China today in OTL, (degrees of liberal admittedly, but nowhere near Stalinesque).
However, with his reputation and how dispised he was among the others, I'd be counting his time in days rather than weeks following Stalin's death.
However, with his reputation and how dispised he was among the others, I'd be counting his time in days rather than weeks following Stalin's death.
Yes a most excellent book ,I read it over ChristmasCheers and smiles
(I'd highly recommend Sebag-Montefiore's Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar if you've a further interest in the topic.)
If Stalin was not a paranoid then he certainly survived extreamly well in paranoid society and I'd hate to live on the Difference
I agree Beria is gone soon after Stalins death.
One result of an early Stalin death is that Marshall Zhukov may not be sent into internal exile after the war.
The 'Race to Berlin' by the competing Russian fronts might turn out to be even bloodier than it was IOTL as Gaining Berlin would be a prize well worth giving to the New leader
Two thoughts
Firstly a new leader must be found quickly and a united front shown to the US/UK even if such a leader is temporary
Secondly how will this new leader 'play' at Potsdam ? IOTL Stalin was the only surviving leader and firmly in command against a still learning [though rapidly] Trueman and a well meaning but comparatively powerless Attlee
I can only see two ways this could go, a lighter, shorter cold war, or a longer nastier cold war.
I guess that the best choice to handle negotiations during and after WWII would be Molotov...
Yeah, kind of creepy that the guy with an improvise alcohol based bottle bomb named after him is the most reasonable guy.