WI: Stalin and Hitler signed a treaty of aliance?

OCC: Hitler and Stalin signed the treaty of non-aggression in 1939. what if Hitler and Stalin combined forces and conquer the whole Europe?:confused:
IC Hitler and Stalin signed the treay of alliance promising each other that they will help the other in case one is eliminated from the war. Hitler and Stalin further agreed in 1940 that they will attack Poland and other countries between them and fairly devide the area. In 1940, Germany and Russia conquered Poland, Finland, Belgium and the Netherlands. In 1941, they started to head West into France. Along with Italy, they used the technique Blitzkrieg or "Lightning War" and defeated the French at the battle of Paris. There they forced the president of France to sign a treaty.
The treaty says:

  • The French has to pay 10,000,000 Francs for reparations
  • The French has to take all blame for this war
  • The French can not have any military
  • The French has to give 1/10 of its land to Russia, German, and Italy
With the French conquered, soon the British surrendered during the Battle of Britiain in which the Russians invaded England, and the Germans bombed London and other cities. The English were caught by surprised, and 1/4 of their planes were destroyed even before they started fighting.
 
OOC: you'd need a different German leader (Who?) since Hitler is a rabid anticommunist. He hated communism and wanted to destroy the Soviet Union and get Lebensraum there.
 
With the French conquered, soon the British surrendered during the Battle of Britiain in which the Russians invaded England, and the Germans bombed London and other cities. The English were caught by surprised, and 1/4 of their planes were destroyed even before they started fighting.
WTF? How the hell can the poms be taken by suprise when they had a comprehensive radar network (i.e. little probability of tactical suprise) and fresh after France has fallen (i.e. the poms are on their guard on the strategic level)? How the hell do the Russians get ashore in the face of the poms' overwhelming naval suppiriority?

We're talking about a scenario that makes operation Sealion look sane.
 
WTF? How the hell can the poms be taken by suprise when they had a comprehensive radar network (i.e. little probability of tactical suprise) and fresh after France has fallen (i.e. the poms are on their guard on the strategic level)? How the hell do the Russians get ashore in the face of the poms' overwhelming naval suppiriority?

We're talking about a scenario that makes operation Sealion look sane.


Ignoring the stupidity of a German-Soviet alliance, Sealion does stand a bigger chance here then in OTL. Think about it. You can have the Soviets concentrating much less on their army and airforce and much more on their navy. Granted it wont be as powerfull as the navy of the Brits, but it will be formidable with the help of German navial advisors. Perhaps also without an eastern front to distract Germany, the Germans can build a strong naval bomber arm. They can also concentrate on air transports.

With the above, I can see a succesfull Sealion by 45. If the Germans somehow manage to get complete air supremacy by that time. Then the Germans can with the use of a Soviet fleet, rush in an attempt to land in southern Britain. Many of their troop transports will be sunk but Germany's naval bombers should prevent the worst damage. Only then with a massive number of advanced U-Boats sinking British transports and a new encryption system that Ultra can't break, will Sealion be allowed a very small chance of success. This is assuming American and Germany are not in a war.

The scenario mentioned by Billlin12345 where in 1941-42 Sealion occurs is plain impossible.
 
Ignoring the stupidity of a German-Soviet alliance, Sealion does stand a bigger chance here then in OTL. Think about it. You can have the Soviets concentrating much less on their army and airforce and much more on their navy. Granted it wont be as powerfull as the navy of the Brits, but it will be formidable with the help of German navial advisors. Perhaps also without an eastern front to distract Germany, the Germans can build a strong naval bomber arm. They can also concentrate on air transports.

With the above, I can see a succesfull Sealion by 45. If the Germans somehow manage to get complete air supremacy by that time. Then the Germans can with the use of a Soviet fleet, rush in an attempt to land in southern Britain. Many of their troop transports will be sunk but Germany's naval bombers should prevent the worst damage. Only then with a massive number of advanced U-Boats sinking British transports and a new encryption system that Ultra can't break, will Sealion be allowed a very small chance of success. This is assuming American and Germany are not in a war.

And the point, from the German POV, would be?
And the point, from the Soviet POV, would be?
 
slslsl

Have you heard that song Dream?
It goes like this dream, dream, dream, dream, dream, dream, I am sorry I don’t remember the rest of it.
Hitler’s dreams of conquest are in the east, the Soviet Union is in the east that simple not to mention the whole racist theory (the Slavs are subhuman and all that crap).
 
Ignoring the stupidity of a German-Soviet alliance, Sealion does stand a bigger chance here then in OTL. Think about it. You can have the Soviets concentrating much less on their army and airforce and much more on their navy. Granted it wont be as powerfull as the navy of the Brits, but it will be formidable with the help of German navial advisors. Perhaps also without an eastern front to distract Germany, the Germans can build a strong naval bomber arm. They can also concentrate on air transports.

With the above, I can see a succesfull Sealion by 45. If the Germans somehow manage to get complete air supremacy by that time. Then the Germans can with the use of a Soviet fleet, rush in an attempt to land in southern Britain. Many of their troop transports will be sunk but Germany's naval bombers should prevent the worst damage. Only then with a massive number of advanced U-Boats sinking British transports and a new encryption system that Ultra can't break, will Sealion be allowed a very small chance of success. This is assuming American and Germany are not in a war.

The scenario mentioned by Billlin12345 where in 1941-42 Sealion occurs is plain impossible.

I suppose it is quite possible that Britain will stand idly by and do nothing to strengthen its own forces and never make any attempt to attack its opponents?
 
I know this is silly,

However Hitler allowing large Soviet units to pass through Germany? I think a better Soviet-German alliance would be both sides picking different targets. The USSR to India and Japan. Germany to Western Europe and North Africa...
 
A German-Soviet Alliance can lead to a successfull invasion sooner than 1945.
I don't see the Americans being all too delighted into getting into such a mess, since any landing in Europe would be a very tough one.

The Germans can focus on North Africa and sweep it clean of the British by the end of 1942. Malta can also be taken by then.
Perhaps the Axis will try to invade Turkey or force it to turn over to their side at this point, something which may actually occur.
Then you have the potential for a serious attempt down the Caucasus and through Egypt into the Middle East by the Axis.

Then, I do not see any reason, why the Germans and Soviets would not start a large shipbuilding project, building true landing craft for a Sealion-attempt. They do not need a Fleet actually. The Germans can focus on building hundreds of level bombers, which would be supported by Soviet ones too.
In fact, in this case you can have a successfull campaign of a year at least during 1943 against British industry + military targets.
The Germans can easily outproduce the British at this point when it comes to fighter aircraft.
In 1944 little stands between a German-Soviet invasion, supported by massive paratroops drops. The Soviets can use their Il-2 to support ground troops as well, which were superior to the Stuka by then.
A long campaign from North Africa against Gibraltar, perhaps with the aid of the Spaniards, would lead to the Gibraltar strongholg lose importance and then you could have the Italian Fleet exit the Med and sortie to French ports.

Why should Sealion fail then?
No reason for it in my eyes.


For all this to happen you need a new German leadership though.
 
OCC: Hitler and Stalin signed the treaty of non-aggression in 1939. what if Hitler and Stalin combined forces and conquer the whole Europe?:confused:
IC Hitler and Stalin signed the treay of alliance promising each other that they will help the other in case one is eliminated from the war. Hitler and Stalin further agreed in 1940 that they will attack Poland and other countries between them and fairly devide the area. In 1940, Germany and Russia conquered Poland, Finland, Belgium and the Netherlands. In 1941, they started to head West into France. Along with Italy, they used the technique Blitzkrieg or "Lightning War" and defeated the French at the battle of Paris. There they forced the president of France to sign a treaty.
The treaty says:

  • The French has to pay 10,000,000 Francs for reparations
  • The French has to take all blame for this war
  • The French can not have any military
  • The French has to give 1/10 of its land to Russia, German, and Italy
With the French conquered, soon the British surrendered during the Battle of Britiain in which the Russians invaded England, and the Germans bombed London and other cities. The English were caught by surprised, and 1/4 of their planes were destroyed even before they started fighting.

Your timeline is rubbish.
Your POD is rubbish.

What can Germany offer the Soviet Union that Germany did not offer anyway? Lithuania?
 
And the point, from the German POV, would be?
And the point, from the Soviet POV, would be?

In 1940, Hitler gets really sick with a bad cold and because of this Morell gives Hitler a bunch of hallucinogens. Hitler starts getting weird dreams and hallucinations about a communist Germany. In them he sees the Germans happy and lets say sees himself as Premier. Hitler becomes confused and may interpret these visions as sent from some sort of god.

He goes on a state visit to the Soviet Union to learn more about communism. Hitler likes what he sees, so he decides to make minor communist changes to his own country. Pretty soon there are massive social reforms, nationalization of most industry, among many other changes. Hitler gets really lucky so the many attempted assassination attempts on him as a result of such policies all fail. After this Hitler begins a purge of the Nazi party and the army, putting socialists and communists in the government.

While this is going on, Germany offers an expeditionary force to fight in Finland on the side of the Soviets. Stalin although very confused, accepts. Finland is taken over by 1941. Throughout 1941-42 the Soviet Union and Germany remain on excellent terms with the Soviet government scratching their heads. Finally by the end of 1942, the Soviet Union and Germany sign a treaty of alliance.

The above obviously seems impossible, but hell unlikely things do happen from time to time.

I suppose it is quite possible that Britain will stand idly by and do nothing to strengthen its own forces and never make any attempt to attack its opponents?

Obviously Britain is not going to stand idle. That is why my scenario had a Sealion in 1945. Then again, other then strengthen their defenses, what can Britain do? The only front where there are battles going on is the North African Front. (assuming Mussolini doesn't get out of the alliance with the communists. Since he most likely will, lets assume he for some reason reverts back to his old socialist views.) The North African front without a Barbarossa to eat resources will be massively resupplied and new ports will be build on the African shoreline. You think the British will win under these conditions. In OTL, the British only won once they massively outnumbered the North African Axis and the Axis started to get really undersupplied.

Britain can't invade France. They can invade Norway, but will be kicked out by masses of Axis troops. Granted they can strengthen their defenses, but the Axis will have a much bigger advantage here. My scenario assumed that the Soviets will concentrate a huge portion of their industry to its navy. Offensives into India and Afghanistan won't be done. With a massive Soviet Navy, huge Soviet naval bomber force, and excellent German leadership, Sealion can be done by 1945. Think about it. Without an Eastern front, Germany can assume air supremacy over all Britain which is another factor key to an invasion.
 
ok... couple things, where does germany get decent landing craft from? Where is US lend lease in this? Why would Hitler invade the west at all?(I know he really did, but in all honesty the west has nothing but a little territory to offer him) In reality Hitler wanted oil, he wanted to kill slavs, and he wanted more territory, the USSR had lots of slavs, oil, and territory, you would need to get rid of hitler altogether, and before he wrote mein kampf in order to get anything resembling this. You also ignored all of eastern Europe, because in order to move troops through Germany, the USSR needs to move troops through those countries first, so you still need an invasion of poland, which would have brought the western allies into the war as per OTL, an alliance with Russia precludes a Tripartite act which pretty much makes Mussolini a neutral power, and possible ally for England and France, which adds a whole massive front for the Germans to defend while attacking France. An alliance with Germany means the Russians may very well never invade Finland, and so no disastrous winter war to learn from which means that along with resources shifted over to the the Russian navy you get an even more inept Red Army, which may very well prove a liability to the Germans rather than a help depending on how the invasion of France is carried out. Oh, and FDR in OTL was anxious to get involved in WWII and take out the Nazi's, so chances are, that by 1945 he would have found a way to do so even without a pearl harbor.
 
so chances are, that by 1945 he would have found a way to do so even without a pearl harbor.

Really how? How the hell would he be able to get a declaration of war out of Congress without the axis being the primary aggressor. Furthermore why would he attack a combined Soviet-German force. It can't happen in my scenario as Japan will find the Soviet-German alliance utterly repulsive, so an attack by Japan won't cause a declaration of war by the Germans.

Read my scenario. It is the post above yours. See what you think of it.
 
In 1940, Hitler gets really sick with a bad cold and because of this Morell gives Hitler a bunch of hallucinogens. Hitler starts getting weird dreams and hallucinations

...

with the Soviet government scratching their heads.

The above obviously seems impossible, but hell unlikely things do happen from time to time.

Yeah… and what's in it for the Soviets once it comes to fight the British? Why should they dedicate resources and blood to this campaign? There is a reason if I asked a double question. For all of this one doesn't just need an outlandish Germany policy; one also needs an outlandish Soviet policy.

I don't see "masses" of Axis troops in Norway, because of the usual reason: logistics. This is the good old British peripheral strategy. It was easier for the British to supply their small army in Lisbon than for the French to supply their large besieging army outside Torres Vedras. The same goes on here. Even today, there is one South-North railway in Norway, with plenty of tunnels, bridges and, guess what, cross-fjord ferries. The point will be whether the Germans and Soviets are able to deploy enough air assets to maintain air superiority. If they can, then a British landing here isn't going to survive. But if they cannot, that's another kettle of fish. Note that as an alternative to a permanent landing, the British can carry out winter raids (where a "raid" might last a month or so, not necessarily a day like at Vaagso). Bad weather doesn't affect naval power as it affects air power.

Apart from that, there is something more that the British can do to thwart a late-war Seelöwe: keep hitting the naval assets that would make it possible. The Tirpitz was dealt with while at anchor. Bomber Command, in OTL, was rather effective in keeping German warships under repairs by hitting them in their lairs. Sure, in this unlikely scenario the navies might be built up in Soviet ports, outside the British bombers' range – in 1941. Give them this problem and three years to develop a solution, and I believe that Bomber Command will be, in this ATL 1944, paying visits to Leningrad too.
 
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