WI :- SR-71 shot down

[nbcman]

Because I want to see it shot down 😉 Assume that the Americans seeing the seeming invulnerable nature of the SR-71s decide to try something more i.e. get a hundred miles into Soviet airspace to see a hundred mile more.

Why would the US do something provocative in 1987 when relations with the Soviets were improving after 1985? Just 'cuz isn't a good enough reason.

If you want a reason for the US to do a fly over, maybe have the US fly over the Soviet Far East in response to the downing of KAL 007 in 1983. EDIT: This would still be a pretty stupid action by the US considering satellites were available but at least this is a POD for the US to do a fly over in the Soviet Far East.

 

[The Wizard]

Check out The History Guy (

). There were a couple of times when is might have been possible for an SR-71 to fall into Soviet hands.

 

[Rickshaw]

SR-71s were not invulnerable. The BAC Lightning managed to intercept them from above several times. They adopted a ballistic profile and descended on the Blackbird without warning. The Lightning also successfully intercepted U-2s and the Concorde. Both extremely difficult targets.

 

[ShySusan]

The SR71 was started with tetra-ethyl boron fuel, which releases oxygen as it burns. It was suspected that in dire need this stuff, known as piss, could be injected into the engines allowing the plane to climb to 100,000'+, beyond the altitude the engines could operate with simple air.

I don't think the SR71 could do much over mach 3.3 because some shock wave hit some part of the airframe causing instability. Apparently the A12 could go over m3.4 because it didn't have the same front fuselage shape.

There were risks associated, I'll offer no argument there. But that's true of pushing every aircraft outside its envelope. I'm not suggesting that this was something that could be done routinely or safely. Even in the article I linked to, the pilot states the engines were running "relatively cool." Leading me to believe that they were running hot, but not beyond what they were expecting for pushing the aircraft faster than they normally would. And based on what I understand of how the inlet cones work, I would think they were probably also risking a compressor stall by pushing the aircraft faster than mach 3.2. So it's risky, but it may fall into the "best of the bad options" category.

Like I said, it's not impossible. But that pic was also pure random chance in an environment where thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of bullets were flying back and forth.

That's why I mentioned the surveillance equipment, because they'd have to get close before launching to have a reasonable chance of scoring a hit.

Yeah, the cameras, and other equipment, could warn the crew that an intercept attempt was being made and they could adjust their course accordingly. And given the speed of the aircraft, even a minor course change would put the aircraft tens of miles away from the planned intercept point. It's still not impossible to conduct a successful intercept, it's just very long odds.

 

[Rajveer Naha]

Yeah, the cameras, and other equipment, could warn the crew that an intercept attempt was being made and they could adjust their course accordingly. And given the speed of the aircraft, even a minor course change would put the aircraft tens of miles away from the planned intercept point. It's still not impossible to conduct a successful intercept, it's just very long odds.

That was why the Soviets wanted to box it in and fire at it from multiple vectors with missiles that can fly at it with a ""relative"" speed of mach 2 guided throughout it's course by a state of the art(of the time) phased array radar.

 

[Rajveer Naha]

SR-71s were not invulnerable. The BAC Lightning managed to intercept them from above several times. They adopted a ballistic profile and descended on the Blackbird without warning. The Lightning also successfully intercepted U-2s and the Concorde. Both extremely difficult targets.

Indeed the concorde was a difficult target most western fighters failing to intercept it. As an interceptor the English Electric Lightning was a great aircraft.

 

[ShySusan]

That was why the Soviets wanted to box it in and fire at it from multiple vectors with missiles that can fly at it with a ""relative"" speed of mach 2 guided throughout it's course by a state of the art(of the time) phased array radar.

You still need to get a close to a head on intercept as possible. It's really difficult to intercept an aircraft that's faster than you are. Not impossible, but very, very difficult.

 

[marathag]

Say SR-71s violate USSR airspace here and there throughout the 70s and 80s and in 1987 one is shot down using R-33 missiles fired from a MiG-31 over Kamchatka and the pilots are captured.

SR-71 never flew within 12 miles of Soviet territory, but just skirted the borders. the Slant range from the altitude they flew at allowed them to collect the data they needed from oblique shots, and ELINT to collect data from all the Radars that woke up as they passed.
The USAF/other Agencies didn't want to find out how good the the USSR SAMs after SA-2 had improved since the U-2

The USSR tried the to box in the Blackbird with the MiG-25 and then MiG-31.
They pooped out at 65,000 feet after a zoom climb, with the Blackbirds were 10,000+feet higher

If the Soviets engage out of the 12 mile limit, or somehow the Blackbird pilots massively goof their position, problem is, any damage at the speeds at 75,000 meains you will get bits of titanium confetti raining down, no time for the pilots to eject, They didn't have capsules like the B-58 to survive ejection at those kinds of speeds

 

[marathag]

SR-71s were not invulnerable. The BAC Lightning managed to intercept them from above several times. They adopted a ballistic profile and descended on the Blackbird without warning. The Lightning also successfully intercepted U-2s and the Concorde. Both extremely difficult targets.

You mean when they were landing at Mildenhall? as that's the only time they could ever be above an SR-71

 

[Rickshaw]

You mean when they were landing at Mildenhall? as that's the only time they could ever be above an SR-71

No, the report was that they intercepted them out in the Atlantic, well before they made their descent. The Lightning was quite capable of reaching higher than 80, 000 feet on occasion. The Lightning pilots planned their interception and carried them out with aplomb.

 

[Questerr]

Why do you say so? The U-2 pilot did survive.

The U-2 is subsonic. Pilots in a disintegrating aircraft moving Mach 3+ aren’t going to survive it.

 

[Questerr]

Well the R-33 was designed with the SR-71 in mind, it had similar capabilities to that of the Aim-54 Phoenix. It is said that with Aim-54s an F-14 could down a SR-71.
The Soviets had calculated the interception plans down to the last second. Takeoff was to after 16 minutes of the alarm sounding and six aircrafts were to box in the SR-71 and fire R-33s from multiple vectors and hopefully one hit would be scored. The MIG-31s were able to lock onto the SR-71s quite a few times. The MIG-31s had PESA radars, the only fighter/interceptor to do so at the time so finding the SR-71s won't take long. In 2.5mins after take off it reached 82000 feet and it's pilot could see the SR-71s with their naked eyes.

So let's assume with capable systems available already they manage a lucky hit.

“It is said that with Aim-54s an F-14 could down a SR-71.”

Who exactly says that?

 

[Puzzle]

No, the report was that they intercepted them out in the Atlantic, well before they made their descent. The Lightning was quite capable of reaching higher than 80, 000 feet on occasion. The Lightning pilots planned their interception and carried them out with aplomb.

Not taking away anything from the pilots but won’t the SR-71s be operating with slightly more care when they’re skirting the Soviet Union as opposed to crossing the Anglo American lake?

 

[DougM]

It would be more interesting if the SR71 was shot down at the boarder its exact location at the time being disputed would result in a LOT more international discussion . Doubly so only a few years after Flight 007 was shot down.

 

[Belisarius II]

Well the R-33 was designed with the SR-71 in mind, it had similar capabilities to that of the Aim-54 Phoenix. It is said that with Aim-54s an F-14 could down a SR-71.
The Soviets had calculated the interception plans down to the last second. Takeoff was to after 16 minutes of the alarm sounding and six aircrafts were to box in the SR-71 and fire R-33s from multiple vectors and hopefully one hit would be scored. The MIG-31s were able to lock onto the SR-71s quite a few times. The MIG-31s had PESA radars, the only fighter/interceptor to do so at the time so finding the SR-71s won't take long. In 2.5mins after take off it reached 82000 feet and it's pilot could see the SR-71s with their naked eyes.

So let's assume with capable systems available already they manage a lucky hit.

The AIM-54 Phoenix was really designed to shot down large, none maneuvering, subsonic aircraft like TU-95's, or TU-16 Bombers. Hitting a Backfire, or Blackjack would be a lot harder, hitting a maneuvering fighter was unlikely, and an SR-71 highly unlikely.

 

[Belisarius II]

Why would the US do something provocative in 1987 when relations with the Soviets were improving after 1985? Just 'cuz isn't a good enough reason.

If you want a reason for the US to do a fly over, maybe have the US fly over the Soviet Far East in response to the downing of KAL 007 in 1983. EDIT: This would still be a pretty stupid action by the US considering satellites were available but at least this is a POD for the US to do a fly over in the Soviet Far East.

Trust, but verify. Intelligence gathering is always essential, especially when dealing with such a faithless power as the Soviet Union.

 

[Father Maryland]

What do you think would happen(I mean reactions around the world) after the Soviets announce that they have successfully downed a SR-71 and show the captured pilots on television.

Perhaps no more than a rerun of the 1960 U2 Incident. Cancel the 1987 Washington summit?
Are the crew really likely to survive a shoot down?

Surviving pilots is the most unlikely part. As others have said while it is theoretically possible that the Mig-31/R-33 combo could shoot down a SR-71, though the odds on that aren't great, the odds of pilot survival are so infinitesimal as to be essentially zero.

Yeah to me at least a SR-71 getting shot down isn't the most unlikely part. The most unlikely part is the pilot actually surviving getting shot down while at that altitude and flying +Mach 2.

I mean this in aircraft which when actually used in a manner similar to a potential recon of the USSR (namely going + Mach 2 for long sprints) after landing needed to be sprayed down for half an hour before it cooled down enough for the pilot to actually survive leaving the plane.

Honestly I'd be surprised if enough of the pilot survived to be able to positively identify the poor bastard. We'd probably be talking "The largest intact piece of the pilot we've found is a 2mm long splinter of bone" versus "Fully alive and mostly intact USAF officer". I wonder if the AAM/SAM would ignite the planes fuel and just cause the entire thing to explode into little millimeter long splints of titanium.

 

[Rajveer Naha]

They pooped out at 65,000 feet after a zoom climb,

The service ceiling was 82000 feet where it could achieve its full speed.

 

[Rajveer Naha]

The U-2 is subsonic. Pilots in a disintegrating aircraft moving Mach 3+ aren’t going to survive it.

Unlike normal fighter pilots they wore spacesuits, maybe because of that.


@Questerr https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bu...sr-71-blackbird-from-soviet-skies-2013-12?amp

 

[ShySusan]

Unlike normal fighter pilots they wore spacesuits, maybe because of that.

No. The suits they wore were to cope with the low air pressure at that altitude. They would have been less than useless had they tried ejecting at mach 3+. They could handle the lack of air and pressure, but would be torn apart by the speed.