WI: Split of Hohenstaufen Inheritance?

[Kellan Sullivan]

Hope everyone had a good Christmas

I've become interested in the Hohenstaufen dynasty of late. And perusing through their family trees, I couldn't help but noticing that Friedrich II gave his bastards some lucrative posts - Enzo, king of Sardinia; Federico d'Antiocha, margrave/vicar general of Tuscany (in some records he is called the "king" of Tuscany), duke of Spoleto and vicar of the March of Ancona; of course Manfred was regent of Sicily.

Now the title of Margrave of Tuscany had previously been held by the murdered Philipp of Swabia, but on his death without sons, it passed back into the Hohenstaufen estate. And Friedrich promised a Sicilian governorate to his son from his second marriage, in a letter to Henry III of England.

But this makes me wonder - if Friedrich II had more legitimate sons/male relatives who survived, would he attempt to splinter this realm spreading from Germany to Jerusalem? Or would he concentrate everything in the hands of one person, as was done in the last Conradin survives TL where Conradin is Holy Roman Emperor and king of Sicily and Italy and Jerusalem and duke of Swabia. I mean, I can understand the emperor keeping the duchy of Swabia - like the Luxemburgs and Habsburgs kept Bohemia - but an emperor sitting with such far-reaching territories (a la Karl V) seems to be looking for trouble?

 

[Cornelis]

Hope everyone had a good Christmas

I've become interested in the Hohenstaufen dynasty of late. And perusing through their family trees, I couldn't help but noticing that Friedrich II gave his bastards some lucrative posts - Enzo, king of Sardinia; Federico d'Antiocha, margrave/vicar general of Tuscany (in some records he is called the "king" of Tuscany), duke of Spoleto and vicar of the March of Ancona; of course Manfred was regent of Sicily.

Now the title of Margrave of Tuscany had previously been held by the murdered Philipp of Swabia, but on his death without sons, it passed back into the Hohenstaufen estate. And Friedrich promised a Sicilian governorate to his son from his second marriage, in a letter to Henry III of England.

But this makes me wonder - if Friedrich II had more legitimate sons/male relatives who survived, would he attempt to splinter this realm spreading from Germany to Jerusalem? Or would he concentrate everything in the hands of one person, as was done in the last Conradin survives TL where Conradin is Holy Roman Emperor and king of Sicily and Italy and Jerusalem and duke of Swabia. I mean, I can understand the emperor keeping the duchy of Swabia - like the Luxemburgs and Habsburgs kept Bohemia - but an emperor sitting with such far-reaching territories (a la Karl V) seems to be looking for trouble?

Northern Italy was part of the Empire, its control one of the major objectives of the Swabian emperors. I can not see a PoD explaining a Northern Italy-Germany split.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Northern Italy was part of the Empire, its control one of the major objectives of the Swabian emperors. I can not see a PoD explaining a Northern Italy-Germany split.

Northern Italy with Germany is okay, even understandable. I meant more Sicily, Sardinia, Naples and Jerusalem sort of thing.

 

[The Professor]

How many legitimate sons?

Assuming 3 then I'd go for Swabia/King of the Romans, Sicily (inc Sardinia and Naples), and the Arelate. Jerusalem probably becoming held by the Emperor as one of his titles. Interestingly this is the time when Holy was added to the name of the empire...
If 2 then the Sicilies get spun off first.

Jerusalem will often depend on which son is eldest when Frederick dies, boots on the ground, and who is in the Pope's favour.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

How many legitimate sons?

Assuming 3 then I'd go for Swabia/King of the Romans, Sicily (inc Sardinia and Naples), and the Arelate. Jerusalem probably becoming held by the Emperor as one of his titles. Interestingly this is the time when Holy was added to the name of the empire...
If 2 then the Sicilies get spun off first.

Jerusalem will often depend on which son is eldest when Frederick dies, boots on the ground, and who is in the Pope's favour.

Wouldn't Jerusalem be given to the kid that Fritz had with the Queen of Jerusalem? I mean, once/if Conradin dies without issue, I can see one of his half-siblings appropriating it despite someone else having a better claim.

As to how many kids, Constance of Aragon was 30 when she married Friedrich, so old, but I think she could probably push out at least one more son. Or, we could have Philipp of Swabia's son (Reinhald, I think was his name) survive. That would at least simplify that title - Philipp was margrave of Tuscany from 1195 to 1197 (some sources say until he died), so if Reinhald (born between Maria and Kunigunde) or Friedrich (b.1205), survive, then the margraviate of Tuscany could end up in that side line.

Alternately, if we go with Friedrich's OTL sons:

Friedrich II Rudiger Konstantin, Holy Roman Emperor 1m: 1209 Constance of Aragon (b.1179, d. 1222); 2m: 1225 Isabella II, Queen of Jerusalem (b.1211, d.1228); 3m: 1235 Isabella of England (b.1214, d.1241)

• [1m.] Heinrich VII, King of the Romans (b.1211)
  • Heinrich, King of the Romans, King of Italy, Duke of Swabia
    
  • Friedrich, Duke of Austria, Styria and Carinthia
• [2m.] Konrad I, King of Jerusalem (b.1228)
  • Kings of Jerusalem
• [3m.] Heinrich Otto, King of Sicily*, Margrave of Tuscany (b.1236)
  • Kings of Sicily*, Margraves of Tuscany
• [3m.] Karl Otto (known as Heinrich from 1242/1251) (b.1241, d.1254)
• [3m.] Friedrich (b.1239, d.young)

*Only if Sicily doesn't get spun-off to the Hierosalemite branch of the family

 

[trajen777]

I think that depends on the skill of the sons. If a truly remarkable one had come about then i see him being the ONE who controls all. I see the others sons having their inheritance but under the emperor.

 

[Alex Zetsu]

How many legitimate sons?

Assuming 3 then I'd go for Swabia/King of the Romans, Sicily (inc Sardinia and Naples), and the Arelate. Jerusalem probably becoming held by the Emperor as one of his titles. Interestingly this is the time when Holy was added to the name of the empire...

This seems like the most logical choice. If more than 3, the excess might be given county level or some other minor holdings in the Empire.

Jerusalem is probably leaning towards the Emperor, but you are right about the Pope.

I love the timing of this is when "Holy" was added to its name...

 

[Prince de Pringondani]

I don't think that the nobility of the Kingdom of Jerusalem would accept half siblings of Conrad for his mother inherited the Crown and without her the Hohenstaufen had no rights

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I don't think that the nobility of the Kingdom of Jerusalem would accept half siblings of Conrad for his mother inherited the Crown and without her the Hohenstaufen had no rights

Considering that Jerusalem's nobility was divided between Conradin/de Lusignan supporters at the time, I'd say that them sticking with a Hohenstaufen half sibling who has interests in Europe and no claim to the throne isn't really going to fly. The only way I could maybe see it happening is if said Hohenstaufen prince marries a descendant of some previous king of Jerusalem - but that seems rather unlikely.

 

[Emperor Constantine]

Best bet is Heinrich VII not betraying his father and getting disinherited/dying early. Heinrich VII inherits the Empire, Conrad III inherits Jerusalem and Heinrich Otto get's Sicily. Or we have Conrad inheriting a Mediterranean Kingdom of Sicily and Jerusalem, with Otto only getting Tuscany. Of course we could see a legitimate son installed as one of the Archbishop-Electors in Germany as well, if Friedrich/Heinrich can overcome the Papacy.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Best bet is Heinrich VII not betraying his father and getting disinherited/dying early. Heinrich VII inherits the Empire, Conrad III inherits Jerusalem and Heinrich Otto get's Sicily. Or we have Conrad inheriting a Mediterranean Kingdom of Sicily and Jerusalem, with Otto only getting Tuscany. Of course we could see a legitimate son installed as one of the Archbishop-Electors in Germany as well, if Friedrich/Heinrich can overcome the Papacy.

Wouldn't Friedrich/Heinrich push one of their bastard sons/half-brothers for the clergy instead? Eliminates competition if someone like Manfred is in cardinal's skirts on a mule instead of shining armour on a charger.

 

[Emperor Constantine]

Wouldn't Friedrich/Heinrich push one of their bastard sons/half-brothers for the clergy instead? Eliminates competition if someone like Manfred is in cardinal's skirts on a mule instead of shining armour on a charger.

Not really. Bastards can't inherit anything normally; Manfred's usurption was an anomaly. A legitimate brother and his line would be a much bigger threat down the way. Better to nip it in the bud early by making sure no legitimate kids can be born.