WI Sparta decided to be more inclusive?

One of the main reasons of the decline of the city state of Sparta was its inability to replace citizens lost in the everlasting wars. That was due to the exclusivity of the spartan society. I am not going to detail the sparta society but i was wondering what would be the results if right after the peloponisian war Spartan leaders decided to accept the sons of perioikous as Spartans after they pass the rather rigorous agogi. Also if the first step was successful would that be extended to the willing and forced allies? In other words could Sparta become a facilitator of early Greek unity in a militaristic state modeled after Sparta itself. I know it is highly unlikely the Spartan society would change its social structure but what if their leaders realized their eventual demise due to population decrease?
 
Not by a long shot my area of expertise, but the idea on the surface is really interesting. Interesting enough to make me reply to keep this from getting buried until those knowledgeable in it show up to crap on my wild-ass guesses. Sparta and Spartans as an Idea that could live on through changes in bloodlines.

I could assume "Spartans" become some warrior-patrician ruling class that is officially based on merit, though knowing humans I'm sure measures will be enacted at some unofficial level to keep it ethnically "pure" as possible. The rest I'm assuming live as a battered "serf" caste. Save for born warriors, not much hope for social mobility. Certain economic and cultural stagnation ahead, IMO.

Not sure about the long-term potential of such a massive "slaveocracy" or whether they could hold all the Peloponnese for long, none the less a major empire. (Maybe if we relocated them to, say, South Africa and gave them carte blanc for developing super-tech they could take over the planet ;)). Also not sure what they'd do to Athens or of the massive butterflies that alone could cause.
 
Spartan society was not just equals and slaves though.

Homoioi: The very top, equals, Spartan citizens.
Perioeci: The trader and manufacturer class. These were free men but not citizens. In this class subjugated cities and allied people was also included.
Then you had the farmers of the subjugated and allied cities. Some were free, some not.
Heloites: Then you had the serfs working the plots of land supplying the equals.

A majority of the Spartan army was of the Perioeci free citizens who also manned the Spartan navy and were allowed to fight alongside equals with the same equipment, if they could afford it. They were also allowed to own land and handle money, both which were forbidden for Heloites and Homoioi (the state owned all land and all Heloites).
 
Spartan society was not just equals and slaves though.

Homoioi: The very top, equals, Spartan citizens.
Perioeci: The trader and manufacturer class. These were free men but not citizens. In this class subjugated cities and allied people was also included.
Then you had the farmers of the subjugated and allied cities. Some were free, some not.
Heloites: Then you had the serfs working the plots of land supplying the equals.

A majority of the Spartan army was of the Perioeci free citizens who also manned the Spartan navy and were allowed to fight alongside equals with the same equipment, if they could afford it. They were also allowed to own land and handle money, both which were forbidden for Heloites and Homoioi (the state owned all land and all Heloites).

Damn, I'd forgotten the Perioeci class. :eek:

In that case do we see over time the Homoioi Elite slowly fading into a possibly Brahmanesque de jure ruling class that ends up supplying the officer-nobles while the Perioeci slowly become the de facto day-to-day executives of the empire?

I'd imagine Spartan-dominated Athens more than happy to take up that "burden" for them.
 
Thanks for the responses but as i said in the original post i was asking what if they accepted the perioikoi as equal citizens ( after the rigorous training) and what if that after initial succeses was extended first to most of peloponisos and after maybe to most of the Greek cities. Im talking about a very gradual expansion of Spartan society to become a panhellinic society based on the spartan model. I am not talking about the slaves becoming equal. Also the heilotes were actually privileged compared to other city states of the time they were actually allowed to own some property.
 
Damn, I'd forgotten the Perioeci class. :eek:

In that case do we see over time the Homoioi Elite slowly fading into a possibly Brahmanesque de jure ruling class that ends up supplying the officer-nobles while the Perioeci slowly become the de facto day-to-day executives of the empire?

I'd imagine Spartan-dominated Athens more than happy to take up that "burden" for them.
Yes i was thinking something along those lines. Would it be possible to have a early unified militaristic Hellas if that happened?
sorry for double post im a noob :p
 
i was asking what if they accepted the perioikoi as equal citizens ( after the rigorous training) and what if that after initial succeses was extended first to most of peloponisos and after maybe to most of the Greek cities.

Well, I think this could be possible - however, would that be Sparta anymore? If I think of Sparta I'm thinking of the Homoioi first, a class of elite warriers, trained to be warriers all their life. I doubt that many of those who did not undergo such a hard training could cope with that. So inferior warriors joining their ranks would necessarily destroy the very essence of Sparta, I think.

I'd rather see the Homoioi developping into some sort of warrier order, in which anybody "worth" could join - but must pass several tests, training and the like. Doubt however if many would try for that...
 
One of the main reasons of the decline of the city state of Sparta was its inability to replace citizens lost in the everlasting wars. That was due to the exclusivity of the spartan society. I am not going to detail the sparta society but i was wondering what would be the results if right after the peloponisian war Spartan leaders decided to accept the sons of perioikous as Spartans after they pass the rather rigorous agogi. Also if the first step was successful would that be extended to the willing and forced allies? In other words could Sparta become a facilitator of early Greek unity in a militaristic state modeled after Sparta itself. I know it is highly unlikely the Spartan society would change its social structure but what if their leaders realized their eventual demise due to population decrease?

First, as was previously noted, Sparta's caste system was more complex than helots and Spartiates.

The original idea is intriguing, and the ramifications would be interesting. But I don't know if it would be really viable. For one thing, I don't think one could simply be made a spartan. It is a way of life, and one instilled fairly early. Now, I suppose a Jannisary-type system would be possible, as would expanding the ranks of the spartiates (perhaps the children of perioeci?). But that doesn't mean that the Spartans will just accept the option, nor does it ensure that the same population pressures will not return as they first arrived (attrition, lack of resources), although i suppose a jannisary system, if done sustainably, might prevent it.

The whole question may be moot, though, at least militarily. Greek warfare was changing. The rise and integration of light infantry and cavalry, the deepening of the phalanx, and other factors are changing the equation. Even in the classical style, Spartan hoplites were not quite as invincible as they were said to be, and the balance of power is shifting away from them. Even if we remove Epaminondas, sooner or later Thebes, Corinth, or a resurgent Athens will knock Sparta off of it's block, either conventionally or with new tactics, and the Spartan hoplite's aura will fade away.
 

Stephen

Banned
Or perhaps they could expand by simply doing more to ensure that spartan women are continuously pregnant.
 
As i say in my original post i was talking about the children of the perioikoi and not the perioikoi themselves and wouldnt the inclusion of more parts of Hellas give the spartans an edge at adapting the new tactics seeing their society was based on warfare? I know it owuld be hard because they didnt really accept innovations especially if they came from outside but a militaristic state would accept the obvious advantages of new tactics and techniques for example create deep phalanx in the form of the Macedonian or Thebian one that would have the support of the powerfull spartan elite. And consider the socio economical effects of such decision wouldnt it stop the rise of certain powers seeing that most of Hellas was under effective control and domination of Sparta right after the war. there would not be a place for a power when there is a all inclusive regional hegemon. I can see why it wouldnt work cause of the sclerosis that was rampant in the spartan society though.
First, as was previously noted, Sparta's caste system was more complex than helots and Spartiates.

The original idea is intriguing, and the ramifications would be interesting. But I don't know if it would be really viable. For one thing, I don't think one could simply be made a spartan. It is a way of life, and one instilled fairly early. Now, I suppose a Jannisary-type system would be possible, as would expanding the ranks of the spartiates (perhaps the children of perioeci?). But that doesn't mean that the Spartans will just accept the option, nor does it ensure that the same population pressures will not return as they first arrived (attrition, lack of resources), although i suppose a jannisary system, if done sustainably, might prevent it.

The whole question may be moot, though, at least militarily. Greek warfare was changing. The rise and integration of light infantry and cavalry, the deepening of the phalanx, and other factors are changing the equation. Even in the classical style, Spartan hoplites were not quite as invincible as they were said to be, and the balance of power is shifting away from them. Even if we remove Epaminondas, sooner or later Thebes, Corinth, or a resurgent Athens will knock Sparta off of it's block, either conventionally or with new tactics, and the Spartan hoplite's aura will fade away.
 
As i say in my original post i was talking about the children of the perioikoi and not the perioikoi themselves.

Maybe the solution really is a Jannissary-like thing. If the Spartans give up their hereditary status, thus the children remain in the same class as the parents, then you'd get the adult Spartans choosing those kids "fit enough" from whatever class/people/race they come.
 
One of the main problems causing the reduction of the number of Homonoi was that they started inheriting Kleros (the pieces of land that the Helots were tied to), which suddenly made them large land owners as they inherited families that became extinct - and there was no land to allow for new Homonoi as all was already under ownership.

If you change this to a strict state ownership system and allow Homonoi to adopt children of perioikoi and thoser children to take over a free Kleros once they have grown and passed the rigorous training, then you can have the number of Homonoi remain permanent.

Of course, as Atrus say, you also need to change the ultra-conservative outlook of the Spartan socioety to allow them to adopt cavalry, thureporoi and other innovations of warfare.

With a one Homonoi, one Kleros law, you will probably get a kind of influx of "fresh" blood and ideas into the Homonoi and perhaps make them change a bit.

Then the Homonoi can be a small elite guard and other than that mostly officers of the large Spartan Army.
 
One of the main problems causing the reduction of the number of Homonoi was that they started inheriting Kleros (the pieces of land that the Helots were tied to), which suddenly made them large land owners as they inherited families that became extinct - and there was no land to allow for new Homonoi as all was already under ownership.
They always had right to inherit, but somewhere after Peloponesian war the law was passed by ephor Epitadeus, that allowed kleros to be inherited by will or given as gift.
 
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