WI Spain enters the war in '44?

Fairly simple question. What if Franco's Spain, deciding it was best to be on the winning side, declared war on Germany in June or July 1944?

How would this affect the Battle of France?

How would Spanish soldiers preform against the Germans in Southern France?

What are the post-war implications?
 
Basque ports would solve some of WALLIES supply problems.
Splitting German defences to include a Southwestern front would accelerate their collapse in August (Falaise Gap).
Similarly, if WALLIES were granted access to ports in the Northeast of Spain, it would ease the invasion of Marseilles.
Either way, the biggest hassle would be crossing or by-passing the Pyrennes Mountains. Then you are into the Massive Central quietly controlled by French Resistance.
 
Getting on a ride with the Wallies, sure, why not. Spearheading any advance, no way.

You'd also have to answer if the Wallies agree on him joining the war and siding with them. It's not a moot point: Franco did offer to DOW Japan IOTL and send a token volunteer division to the Philippines and Roosevelt shut him down.

I suppose Churchill would be all for yes, Roosevelt would be ambivalent (different circumstances and actual strategic gain vs angering Stalin), Stalin would consider it a betrayal, and De Gaulle would be paranoid that he's aiming to bite chunks off France.
 

TinyTartar

Banned
The Spanish would be doing this for a handout. They wanted American cash and goods and would only do this if they could get their economy subsidized, which was still in ruins after the Civil War.

Militarily, the Spanish Ports could help the Allied Supply situation in Western Europe, and while I think that the Spanish could move up from the Pyrenees and take parts of Aquitaine from the Germans, who were hightailing it out of there anyways, and had many of their troops in SW France surrender en masse after Dragoon to small units of American forward elements (a particularly interesting story I heard was one about an OSS officer, his French contact, and 3 officers from the 36th US Infantry riding ahead and negotiating the surrender of a good part of a German Division who were infected by panic of rumors of the Russians already in Germany after communications had been cut by bombing). The Spanish air force was pitiful and would add little to the fight, but it is possible that the Allies ask for them to send some units to Italy, particularly some of the ones with Civil War experience.

Basically, the Spanish DoW would do little except moderately help the Allied supply situation and rate of advance in Southern France, which was remarkable enough as it was OTL, and possibly help in the Italian theatre with some additional battle hardened units, but this would not make the war any faster in its conclusion or do much about the post war situation.

EDIT: I completely forgot about the Spanish Blue Legion. This would obviously complicate things tremendously. While the majority of the division had returned home, the holdouts, a few thousand in number, were still on the Eastern Front. Like the French SS volunteers (who famously fought their way INTO Berlin's encirclement to make their final stand there), the remaining men were fanatical in their belief in their cause and would doubtlessly prove a huge embarrassment for Franco should at some point Spanish troops meet them in battle.
 
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Spanish ports would be helpful, but definitly not a panacea. The fundamental Allied supply problem in France/Belgium was they advanced far faster than planned & the railroads could not be repaired fast enough to support the dash eastwards. Moving supplies from a Spanish port adds hundreds of kilometers to the rail journey, and the two rail routes between France & Spain were not thee same sort of high capacity routes that connected Marsailles to central France, which had been destroyed between Brest or Cherbourg and Paris.

If the Spanish negotiate this with the Allies far enough in advance then Operation Dragoon will be altered & possiblly accelerated by making it smaller. that is practical if a Allied army is poking its nose across the Pyrnees in July.
 
The first spanish troops to set foot in the french side of the Pyrenees would find strong resistence and continual harassing. No, not by the germans, but by the FFI which in those parts included a large number of spanish republicans.

This would be politically complicated. The WAllies should justify why they are siding with anguy who overthrew a democratic government with german and italian help, and then back-stabbed Germany. Doesn't seem a realiable ally. For the spanish exile and their international supporters it would be an outrage, specially to those fighting for the allied armies or dying in Mathaussen.

On the francoist side, this move would alienate the most fascistic elements of the regime, with the falangists becoming a potential source of trouble. On the other hand, it would create dangerous hopes amongst the monarchists, hopes that once frustrated would isolate Franco from them, lossing in a row his two main sources of political support. And it would be difficult to exppain to the public, even by a dictatorship, why the country that was a dear friend and was clearly going to win the war a year before (so said the official press ans Franco hinself) is now a foe...What about that million of spanish bayonets defending Berlin? What about the volunteers fighting bolshevism with the germans? What about the judeo-masojic decadwnce of the liberal democracies only surpased by the decadence ans threat of the udeo-masonic communists? Has been that galician guy fooling us all this time, even if wr fought for him? That would be more or less the political effect of this move.
 
1944 would be a bit late?

what if Franco struck a deal in 1943 prior to Italian campaign? (and maybe supersedes it)

could follow a Y-shaped path from Spain to Atlantic and Med. coasts of France? and easy access to French resistance?
 
A better way IMO wouold be for Spain to remain neutral, but gradually shift to the West, which would allow the Allies to pour even more poison into the ears of Abwehr. I think the only thing Spain itself would be good for would be running supplies from Bilbao/Santander to Barcelona, which would cut a bit of time off the trip, although it might add it on in handling delays, and would cost more money, since you'd probably have to upgrade that bit of the Spanish rail structure.
 
Depends when in 1944.

Early on, and Overlord and Dragoon may actually have the ability to cut off a vast amount of German troops in France stationed there to guard against Spain.

Later on, and it would have made perhaps much less of a difference, albeit still shortening the war.
 
A number of things could happen. Franco definitely wouldn't last long.

Franco would either switch sides after his forces collapse due to a lack of supplies. They could not be self sustaining.

We could see a coup to remove Franco and end Spain's involvement before an Allied invasion.

Or WWII would take longer because of having to occupy Spain.

Franco was a smart guy, he knew what cards to play when he didn't have a winning hand. The only way I could see Spain joining the way is a Spain without Franco
 
The first spanish troops to set foot in the french side of the Pyrenees would find strong resistence and continual harassing. No, not by the germans, but by the FFI which in those parts included a large number of spanish republicans.

This would be politically complicated. The WAllies should justify why they are siding with anguy who overthrew a democratic government with german and italian help, and then back-stabbed Germany. Doesn't seem a realiable ally. For the spanish exile and their international supporters it would be an outrage, specially to those fighting for the allied armies or dying in Mathaussen.

On the francoist side, this move would alienate the most fascistic elements of the regime, with the falangists becoming a potential source of trouble. On the other hand, it would create dangerous hopes amongst the monarchists, hopes that once frustrated would isolate Franco from them, lossing in a row his two main sources of political support. And it would be difficult to exppain to the public, even by a dictatorship, why the country that was a dear friend and was clearly going to win the war a year before (so said the official press ans Franco hinself) is now a foe...What about that million of spanish bayonets defending Berlin? What about the volunteers fighting bolshevism with the germans? What about the judeo-masojic decadwnce of the liberal democracies only surpased by the decadence ans threat of the udeo-masonic communists? Has been that galician guy fooling us all this time, even if wr fought for him? That would be more or less the political effect of this move.

Were there still camps full of Spanish refugees in southern France by 1944?
 
Say Spain and Port enter the war in Jul/August of '44 with Operation Dragoon. France would fall sooner.

Supply problem would not necessarily be solved as Spanish ports are a long way from the Rhine.

Spanish troops could be used more in Italy and France/Germany where mechanized and armored troops would not do well. This would free up British and American forces for the Netherlands and Northern Germany

European war ends one month to two months sooner

It would be interesting if other neutrals such as Turkey and Sweden would come on in after the Spanish to have WWII end sooner.

If European war ends sooner
Soviets invade Manchuria sooner
Perhaps USA land marines in Korea as the Soviets take Manchuria
B-17 bases in Korea with B-29's in the Marianas just pulverize Japan even more.
Japan surrenders one month sooner, no Atom bomb is dropped
 
A number of things could happen. Franco definitely wouldn't last long.

Franco would either switch sides after his forces collapse due to a lack of supplies. They could not be self sustaining.

We could see a coup to remove Franco and end Spain's involvement before an Allied invasion.

Or WWII would take longer because of having to occupy Spain.

Franco was a smart guy, he knew what cards to play when he didn't have a winning hand. The only way I could see Spain joining the way is a Spain without Franco

I think you've misread the OP. Spain joins the ALLIES in 1944, not the Axis.

Let's be honest, Spain joining the Axis in 1944 is up there with a successful Sealion.
 
damn, I can't read if only they had a derp face on the bottom here.

In that case, Franco would only do so if he had something to gain from it. Such as all of Morocco or financial stability from the Allies (which he got in the 50s anyway). Hitler did give support to Franco, so he may have changed sides in the eyes of hoping to stay in some sort of external support until he can make Spain self supportive, but the fact he remained in power so long thereafter means he had plans.

The Spaniards would fare well against the Germans as they fought with the Germans against the USSR for a short period of time, and by the Battle of the Bulge I could see them being equipped with either British or American arms.

Post war- Franco would not join NATO unless he was guaranteed free/ long term support in both arms and money. He would need it to remain popular and most importantly, in power. It may even help the Spanish economy much earlier than the later 50s with early support.
Spain wouldn't see any spurs of democracy or civil rights either, it would be a Fascist regime tolerated by NATO because of the USSR. We may see him reduce public persecutions of Free Masons. Just as in otl where Eisenhower gave Spain support in attempts to woo him, but if they already have Franco within NATO, they could cut him off from support in an attempt to have him overthrown for a government to their liking. We would also see more and more minsters being replaced through the Franco regime if he were in NATO, just to be sure they weren't working with NATO spies to overthrow him
 
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