In several wars during the 18th Century, Spain and Portugal were often on opposite sides. What if during one of those wars, the Spanish Bourbons successfully conquered Portugal? What could they plausibly get in a peace deal? Is it unreasonable for the Bourbons to kick out the Braganzas and take the throne? Would they partition the country as Napoleon did? Or would they just take the Algarve, that they had claims on?
WI Spain conquers Portugal in the 1700s. How much territory would they annex?
- Thread starter Socrates
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the bourbon didn't had claims on the portuguese crown
peace deal would end with the loss of colonies
the issue of algarve was settled in 1267 when Afonso X of Castile gave up is claims to is grandson the future king Dinis I of Portugal
And please who would think that WE COULD POSSIBLY LOSE A WAR TO THE SPANIARDS
peace deal would end with the loss of colonies
the issue of algarve was settled in 1267 when Afonso X of Castile gave up is claims to is grandson the future king Dinis I of Portugal
And please who would think that WE COULD POSSIBLY LOSE A WAR TO THE SPANIARDS
Ew... you left yourself so exposed.And please who would think that WE COULD POSSIBLY LOSE A WAR TO THE SPANIARDS
Counting down until someone posting a list of wikipedia articles of wars we've lost against the Spaniards...
the bourbon didn't had claims on the portuguese crown
peace deal would end with the loss of colonies
the issue of algarve was settled in 1267 when Afonso X of Castile gave up is claims to is grandson the future king Dinis I of Portugal
And please who would think that WE COULD POSSIBLY LOSE A WAR TO THE SPANIARDS
Why would you need a claim on the Portuguese crown to take territory from the continent?The Spanish sure didn't need a claim on the Portuguese crown to take Olivenza.The Spanish just need to be able to defeat Portuguese army and whatever contingent the British could send to Portugal.Problem is that the Spanish just seemed utterly incapable of doing so despite having much larger armies than the Portuguese-British allied armies.
i said if the bourbon could remove the braganzas from the throne, i said that they didn't had any claim so if they did i think that only france would accept the move.
if you analyse warfare in the 18th century, you notice that the objective of most of europe was to keep the balance if someone would do something that could unbalance europe the other powers wouldn't accept it
more with the peninsular union in effect, again, do you think that the other colonial power would accept a bourbon that would control all of the south and central america, parts of africa, cities in india and trade posts from lisbon to macau?
Ew... you left yourself so exposed.
Counting down until someone posting a list of wikipedia articles of wars we've lost against the Spaniards...
lets remove those heresies from wikipedia immediately
This is for a timeline I'm planning where the Franco-Spanish alliance is much stronger. I'd rather not go into the reasons for that so as not to spoil the timeline, but I'd love to hear people's thoughts on how much is reasonable to land grab in a complete success scenario. Obviously they got completely screwed during the Napoleonic wars, but I get the impression that was excessive due to Napoleon breaking the way things were done.
On the other hand, I don't think minor land grabs would reflect the scale of victory in a complete conquest scenario. My three most plausible scenarios, to my mind, are as follows:
a) Spain takes the Algarve and Alentejo, so as to surround Portugal from all three sides in a future war and also get another royal title. (By Alentejo, I mean the smaller older province, rather than the more modern borders.)
b) Spain takes Tras-os-Montes and Minho, so as to easily integrate it into the Kingdom of Galicia fairly easily, and so it is easier to suppress revolts
c) The Spanish King takes the throne of Portugal, but keeps the parliament separate.
Was there ever a case of something like c) happening in this time period? Or would it make Spain utterly hated throughout Europe? I'm thinking a) is most likely, on the basis that it's a similar share of territory to what Prussia would have lost in the Seven Year's War (Silesia to Austria and East Prussia to Russia).
Also, was there any more resentment to Lisbon rule in one part of Portugal or another? I've read that the Portuguese spoken in Alentejo was almost another language.
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a and b) if they take those lands and tras-os-motes and minho then portugal is left with only beira and estremadura so we will become either a spanish or a british protectorate so a) could happen (i'm from the north part i don't care about what happens to those southern idiots
) but a and b together i doubt it c)unlikely, because that would unite the iberian crowns and with the bourbon in power from portugal to france and the UK couldn't accept the union of the portuguese and spanish empires
Everything's alright as long as papa France doesn't mind.Unlike Prussia,which is surrounded by other states,a Spain that's conquered Portugal only has to contend with France as a neighbour.
a and b) if they take those lands and tras-os-motes and minho then portugal is left with only beira and estremadura so we will become either a spanish or a british protectorate so a) could happen (i'm from the north part i don't care about what happens to those southern idiots
c)unlikely, because that would unite the iberian crowns and with the bourbon in power from portugal to france and the UK couldn't accept the union of the portuguese and spanish empires
I take it the Northern-Southern division is the main one in Portugal? Where is the break? The southern border of Beira? Would it make sense for Spain to take Tras-os-Montes, Minho and Beira?
Would it be more sensible for Spain to combine northern Portugal with the Kingdom of Galicia? Or should they make it a new Kingdom within the Spanish state? The "Kingdom of Beira" perhaps?
This is what I'm wondering. If France is very much on Spain's side, what can the UK really do about it? They can continue fighting a war on their own at sea for a bit, but they can't do that in perpetuity.
Minho and T-os-M may not be so easy to integrate. Alentejo and Algarve would be the safest option for Spain as those provinces have a low population and indeed, as you pointed out, such annexations would leave the Portuguese borders even more exposed to Spain.
They wouldn't want to but if they had lost a war for it, they could have had to suck it up.
But if the scenario is just the occupation of Metropolitan Portugal, I can't see Brazil ever been given away to the Bourbons.
Nope, pretty much the same...
The Braganzas are allowed to rule in Brazil as a compensation I guess.
This assumes that the Braganzas haven't been captured by the Spanish. Isn't it more likely that the British would keep Brazil as a self-governing protectorate (or multiple protectorates) instead? Similar to the situation of South Africa in our timeline.
I'm reading up on it now. This map suggests a division between northern and southern Portuguese:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Portuguese#/media/File:Portugués_europeo.png
Yes, there are dialectal variations as in every other language. But inside Portugal these variations are far - very very very far - from being almost separate languages...I'm reading up on it now. This map suggests a division between northern and southern Portuguese:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Portuguese#/media/File
ortugu%C3%A9s_europeo.pngIs there a sharp break between Galician and Portuguese, then? Or is just one continuum of language and the break only happened there due to political borders?
If you had to split Portugal into two based on culture or identity, where would you do it?
Yes, the borders provoked an accentuated break over time. Galician only really started to drift away from the 15th century onward.
With that said - not surprisingly - the Northern Portuguese dialects are much closer to Galician than the Southern ones. But the difference between the Portuguese spoken on the Portuguese side of the border and the Galician on the Galician side is sufficiently abrupt for a lot of people to consider Galician as a separate language from Portuguese. I read however that there are some regions in northern Trás-os-Montes where the dialect is still pretty close to Galician, though. I never noticed it myself, TBH.
Hard task. There's definitely a Northern vs. Southern identity exacerbated nowadays by football rivalries and an accumulated resentment of the political centralism in Lisbon. The border between the two cultural spaces is far from clear. In informal parlance, the border lies in the Mondego river but that's an arbitrary geographic location. Much of the Center have many shades and many areas can't be earnestly associated with neither North or South.
Be creative.
Yes, the borders provoked an accentuated break over time. Galician only really started to drift away from the 15th century onward.
With that said - not surprisingly - the Northern Portuguese dialects are much closer to Galician than the Southern ones. But the difference between the Portuguese spoken on the Portuguese side of the border and the Galician on the Galician side is sufficiently abrupt for a lot of people to consider Galician as a separate language from Portuguese. I read however that there are some regions in northern Trás-os-Montes where the dialect is still pretty close to Galician, though. I never noticed it myself, TBH.
Hard task. There's definitely a Northern vs. Southern identity exacerbated nowadays by football rivalries and an accumulated resentment of the political centralism in Lisbon. The border between the two cultural spaces is far from clear. In informal parlance, the border lies in the Mondego river but that's an arbitrary geographic location. Much of the Center have many shades and many areas can't be earnestly associated with neither North or South.
Be creative.
So how about Spain taking Tras-os-Montes, Minho and Beira? That way they can capitalise on Porto-Lisbon rivalry, and set up a separate power base on Porto.
Giving Porto autonomous status within Spain? Perhaps there's something to capitalize there but mheh... Ask that guy up there who doesn't care about the Southern idiots.