WI: Spain and Italy joined the Allies in ww2?

We often see threads asking about what if Franco's Spain had joined the Axis, or if Mussolini's Italy had stayed neutral. I don't recal ever seeing a discussion thread asking what if one or both joined the Allies?

I don't think it's too unlikely, given what point during the war they join. Of course there are significant butterlies to deal with. The PoD that leads to the two of them joining the allies would determine when they join.

Considering this is about both Italy and Spain(you can discuss one or the other, but prefferably both) the PoD would most likely have to be after Franco takes power.

Anywho, discuss.
 
We often see threads asking about what if Franco's Spain had joined the Axis, or if Mussolini's Italy had stayed neutral. I don't recal ever seeing a discussion thread asking what if one or both joined the Allies?

I don't think it's too unlikely, given what point during the war they join. Of course there are significant butterlies to deal with. The PoD that leads to the two of them joining the allies would determine when they join.

Considering this is about both Italy and Spain(you can discuss one or the other, but prefferably both) the PoD would most likely have to be after Franco takes power.

Anywho, discuss.

My Timeline (Haven't got up to it though) will explore this. Although Italy just joins in the dogpile when it becomes obvious German defeat will eventually happen.
 
It does seem that the French and British did try to entice Italy into joining the allied cause. I went through the Associated Press archives from the time and it shows some of the following tidbits:

December 20, 1939
The French were prepared to offer a 90-year lease on the port of Djibouti (spelled Jibuti in the article) and transfer a large block of shares in the Suez Canal Company. The French were also willing to increase the rights of Italians in Tunisia and Algeria so that they could be instructed in Italian. The British were prepared to lower Italian fees on the use of Suez and to also allow Italian language instruction in Malta.

March 19, 1940
There were talks of the French relinquishing control of Tunisia. It seems that the British were trying to encourage the French to do so. France seemed reluctant to do so.

March 28, 1940
French Premier Reynaud receives the Italian Ambassador in Paris and is willing to give the Italians strong concessions in return for Italy joining the allies.

April 20, 1940
In a speech before the French Senate, premier Reynaud proposes a Mediterranean "entente" between France, Italy and Spain.

May 4, 1940
More speculation on Franco-Italian negations with the highlights being on Tunisia and French Somaliland. It appears that the French are not willing to negotiate on Corsica, Nice or Savoie.

May 23, 1940
The British and French are again trying to get Mussolini to at least remain neutral by offering the Djibouti railway and the port of Djibouti to the Italians.
 
I just did some more research and apparently throughout May of 1940 the French government was prepared to offer the Italians colonial territory just to remain neutral. The United States was also involved in the negotiations between the two countries. On May 27, Daladier was pushed by General Maxime Weygand who insisted that France must pay any price to hold Italy back from entering the war.

The French government was was prepared to cede French Somaliland completely. Expand Libya at the expense of Chad and offer a Franco-Italian condominium over Tunisia. The French cabinet approved these proposals on May 27.

Also, after reading Ciano's diaries it appears that Mussolini was not too interested in Savoy as it was not really Italian in character. Though it does seem they he did want Corsica.
 
I can easily see a neutral Italy joining in late 44/45 or so when France is all but liberated and the Soviets are in Poland.

The might even nab them influence over a future Austrian government. Franco might follow suit just for a seat at the peace table and some validification of Fascist Spain.

The Viva Balbo timeline seems to explore an Italy that confronts Nazi Germany in the war quite convincingly too.
 
We often see threads asking about what if Franco's Spain had joined the Axis, or if Mussolini's Italy had stayed neutral. I don't recal ever seeing a discussion thread asking what if one or both joined the Allies?

I don't think it's too unlikely, given what point during the war they join. Of course there are significant butterlies to deal with. The PoD that leads to the two of them joining the allies would determine when they join.

Considering this is about both Italy and Spain(you can discuss one or the other, but prefferably both) the PoD would most likely have to be after Franco takes power.

For me, General Franco is too smart or to cautious to enter war against the Germans...

Even in july/august 1944, when the Allies are winning the Battle of Normandy, he had nothing to gain in attacking in south-western France. A region which was liberated by French Resistance units, a majority of them being led by communists and where former spanish republican soldiers played an important role.

Again General Franco was probably a "gentleman" and "a man of honor" and stabbing in the back his former ally and the troops which fought in Spain for his cause is a little too much. Also spanish troops fought in Soviet Union against the communists and it seems that the survivors of the Azul Division had a leading role in the spanish army after their East Front experience.

For Mussolini and Italy, it was another topic, as the italians and the germans had little in common in recent history. The Austrians were de facto the occupiers of most of Italy in the XIXth century...
 
Mussolini actually seriously considered declaring war on Hitler after WWII broke out, but changed his mind after a few minutes, not wanting to come across as being a untrustworthy Italian. 'We not political whores' he said. :D
 
OK if Italy had entered the war as an ally of France and Britain what does it bring to the table? Remember how the Italian Army only just defeats the Ethiopians, struggles against Greece and completely collapses in the Middle East when facing a modern army? OK so there are some exceptional units such as the frogmen units but Italy would be fighting a land war.
 
OK if Italy had entered the war as an ally of France and Britain what does it bring to the table? Remember how the Italian Army only just defeats the Ethiopians, struggles against Greece and completely collapses in the Middle East when facing a modern army? OK so there are some exceptional units such as the frogmen units but Italy would be fighting a land war.

Their motorised units did quite well -many of their defeats were due their foot infantry being overrun by British mobile units.
 
But thats Italy's main problem-its standard service rifle was poor, tanks were obsolete, artillery not that great and coordination and command infrastructures not worth speaking of-not good. The Air Force despite Italy competing very well in the air races throughout the 30s and having been a world leader in the mid 30s by 1940, well......
 
I can see the Allies accepting Italy´s help but why Spain? They have decent infantry ... and thats all, they had problems with supplies, ( all of them ) and infrastructures ... why should let them enter?

The only real reason I could imagine is a ( catastrophic ) break with the soviets ... and is almost ASB IMHO ...

And I suspect FDR would not want its help ...
 
OK if Italy had entered the war as an ally of France and Britain what does it bring to the table? Remember how the Italian Army only just defeats the Ethiopians, struggles against Greece and completely collapses in the Middle East when facing a modern army? OK so there are some exceptional units such as the frogmen units but Italy would be fighting a land war.

On the other hand, with Mussolini and the Fascist Party against them finding collaborators will be insanely hard if the Germans have to occupy Italy. Pretty much no-one will come forward, not from the left or the right.

Oh, sudden idea! Have Germany stomp Italy, and as a result Fascism is forced to reconcile with the opposition in the name of national unity and play up to a democratic image to satisfy the allies, resulting in the eventual democratisation of the Fascist Regime!
 
In 1932 and 1935, Italy asked for the former German Cameroon. Giving them to Italy at some point would seem a good way to get Italy and Germany divided.

I think there are several ways to get Italy into the Allies

1. Pre-war, Italy and Germany fall out over Austria

or
2. Pre-war or early in war, colonial concessions get Italy in the Allies, and joins them

or
3. Italy stays neutral early in the war (maybe as the result, and joins when Germany is close to defeat

or
4. Have Hitler go nuts for Italian Tyrol at some point, or maybe fall out with Italy over Yugoslavia.


I think the best way to get Spain in the Allies is to have Hitler try to occupy it, if it doesn't go along with his demands to attack Gibraltar. Maybe he sponsors a coup, and when that fails... Of course this can only happen after Germany has crushed France, but if Germany has crushed France, I can't see Italy then rushing to join the Allies or fight Germany over Spain.
 
Italy falling out with Germany over Austria is very strong (as they very nearly did), add in Italy NOT attacking Ethiopia and yup works for me! So Spain....
 
I do not see why Spain would join the allies under Franco. However if the German Apring 1940 offensive went seriosly pear shaped, and I believe wiht different lcuk and weather it could have, once the Allies were threatening the German/Austrian state in the Noth West Mussolini might have invaded Austria

(with roughly the same level of effectivness as his attack on France in 1940, not much
 
After reading Count Galeazzo Ciano's diary, it provides some insight onto Italy's entrance into the war. For those unfamiliar with him, he was Minister of Foreign Affairs from 1936-1943 and Mussolini's son-in-law. Here are some interesting points I was able to find leading up to the war.

-Throughout 1939 and 1940 the Italian military commanders repeatedly warned of Italy's lack of preparation for war. General Carboni, head of Itay's military intelligence stated that the command structure was disorganized and that the troops lacked morale. General Graziani stated that only 10 first-line divisions existed in the army and that the other 35 were under strength or ill equipped.

-In October of 1939 reports were received by Italians in Poland of the German atrocities being committed there. Mussolini was indignant. The Germans had failed to consult Mussolini prior to the Nazi-Soviet pact and Mussolini had turned against the Germans.

-March 14, 1940
Count Alberto Acquarone, Minister of the Royal House approaches Ciano on the golf course to inform him that King Victor Emmanuel III was prepared to replace Mussolini with Ciano. Ciano, however remained vague and a great opportunity was missed.

-May 26, 1940
Marshal Pietro Badoglio is informed of Mussolini's intent to enter the war and is dumbfounded. He again reiterates that Italy is not prepared to enter the war.

Ciano seems to have been extremely anti-German and it was clear that the vast majority of Italians were against Italy entering the war in 1940. Perhaps a palace coup could have been managed in March of 1940 with Mussolini being replaced by Ciano. It seems that the most important pillars of support in Italian society would be behind this: the King, the Church and the military leaders.
 
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