WI: Spain and Aragon never united

Without the unification of Castile and Aragon would Castile be in a position to conquer Granada or would Aragon object?
Aragon wouldn't object. They might even be willing to ally for the situation and get something from Castile in exchange for their help. At this point, Granada is entirely surrounded by Castile to the point where Castile already holds Ceuta. Maybe Aragon wouldn't like Castile its Mediterranean holdings, but it can do little about it; once again it is best to keep Castile happy.

Also without the resources and conquest of Granada would Columbus find a receptive audience at Castile court? He had already been refused by Portuguese who secretly had already discovered maritime route to Indian Ocean around Africa. Would he turn to France or England?

The lack of unification would have a huge impact on the new world and the conquest of its two largest native empires Aztec and Inca since any Castilian or other contact would be later.

The resources Columbus asked for were next to none; three ships and crew for a crazy venture. Castile might still be open, as long as the war against Granada isn't prolonged. At most Columbus would have to wait a couple of years, but by then I assume some Portuguese explorers would have already noticed the Brazilian coast as they try to circumnavigate Africa.

England might be open since they were open to sponsoring John Cabot shortly after in OTL. There were enough sailors with enough crazy ideas looking for sponsorship that crashing into the Americas would only be a matter of time. At most your looking into a 5 to 10-year delay. Diseases would still ravage the local population, and the end result might look different but would feel very similar to OTL.
 

Lusitania

Donor
Aragon wouldn't object. They might even be willing to ally for the situation and get something from Castile in exchange for their help. At this point, Granada is entirely surrounded by Castile to the point where Castile already holds Ceuta. Maybe Aragon wouldn't like Castile its Mediterranean holdings, but it can do little about it; once again it is best to keep Castile happy.

Ceuta was conquered by the Portuguese in 1415 and would not belong to the Spanish till 1640 when the local commander of Ceuta refused to swear allegiance to the independent Portugal and stayed part of Spain. Even during unification phase it was still considered part of Portuguese crown not Spanish.

The resources Columbus asked for were next to none; three ships and crew for a crazy venture. Castile might still be open, as long as the war against Granada isn't prolonged. At most Columbus would have to wait a couple of years, but by then I assume some Portuguese explorers would have already noticed the Brazilian coast as they try to circumnavigate Africa.

England might be open since they were open to sponsoring John Cabot shortly after in OTL. There were enough sailors with enough crazy ideas looking for sponsorship that crashing into the Americas would only be a matter of time. At most your looking into a 5 to 10-year delay. Diseases would still ravage the local population, and the end result might look different but would feel very similar to OTL.

Arriving 5-10 years later will have huge impact to the conquest of America, yes disease will ravage American tribes but the new Aztec king will not look at the Spanish riding on horses as messengers from GOD with 4 legs. Also by 1500 Portugal's Cabral will discover Brazil on way to India and will be in better position to demand a greater portion of the New Continent. Might not even have an agreement. Free for all.[/QUOTE]
 
Don't see why portuguese discovery of Brasil should be so self-evident. Portuguese circumnavigation succeeded in 1488, but in neither of the many expeditions of half a century had portuguese sailors strayed so far from the coast. The Capverdian islands, yes, but South America? That's not exactly a difference you bridge by getting a little blown off course. Cabral's 1496 voyage was clearly in knowledge of Columbus's. No Columbus 1492 likely means no Cabral 1496.

Also, yes, many many expeditions would be funded, but not necessarily one so crazy as Columbus's. He had simply miscalculated the circumference of the earth, and the Portuguese, who had better maps and greater knowledge of these matters, saw that and laughed at him. A few more years and more African voyages will only mean more knowledge about the earth' size, which would discourage columbus' crazy enterprise even more. For all the Portuguese knew, there was an ocean as large as the Atlantic, the americas and the Pacific plus the Indonesian archipelago etc. taken together between them and India, merely dotted with a few islands like Madeira and the Azores.

Granada holding out a few more years may mean a lot, thus.

Also, if Aragon and Castile remain separate for another three decades, is either of the two kingdoms likely receptive to Protestant ideas???
 
I think the idea around discovering Brazil is that it is easier than the Caribbean for anyone looking for more islands like the Azores, which is what the Portuguese navigators saw the western oceans containing.
Thus any Portuguese navigator pushing his luck on the Azores to Africa route could sight the coast, though not necessarily land. Enough sightings would generate a deliberate voyage.
 
I think the idea around discovering Brazil is that it is easier than the Caribbean for anyone looking for more islands like the Azores, which is what the Portuguese navigators saw the western oceans containing.
Thus any Portuguese navigator pushing his luck on the Azores to Africa route could sight the coast, though not necessarily land. Enough sightings would generate a deliberate voyage.
Sailing from the Azores to Africa, you'd have to be one very disoriented or (un)lucky sailor to sight the Brasilian coast!?!
 
Arriving 5-10 years later will have huge impact to the conquest of America, yes disease will ravage American tribes but the new Aztec king will not look at the Spanish riding on horses as messengers from GOD with 4 legs. Also by 1500 Portugal's Cabral will discover Brazil on way to India and will be in better position to demand a greater portion of the New Continent. Might not even have an agreement. Free for all.

Even some decades wouldn't change much of the Aztec situation, what doomed them was the disease and the fact that they were hated by their vassals, nothing that will change in the near future. But the conquest of the Inca is more open to debate.
 

Lusitania

Donor
That's why "pushing his luck". Basically sailing further and further out in hopes of spotting something.

Portuguese suspicions of lands beyond the Azores had existed from the time of Portuguese settlement of the islands. Driftwood of unknown varieties would wash ashore along the various islands regularly. Modern Portuguese speculation was that this suspicion was the reason for the Portuguese to demand the Portuguese-Spanish western line of control to be 200 miles west of the Azores instead of being along the Azores as the Spanish demanded. This leads into the speculation that Portuguese captains were told to swing more westerly than required while sailing to India, in hopes of finding something.
 
You people are overstimating Aragon by a lot.The crown of Aragon after the black death was poor outside of Valencia,with a king with very little authority and a population that barely surprassed 800k people.Some provinces of France were more populated and wealthier than the entirity of the crown.Aragon was a none factor and relied on the French king to stomp their own rebellions as the king could never gather the support of his nobles.If Aragon remained independent it would have lost Sicily,its influence over Naples and probably the Balearic islands to France.The whole point of marrying Ferdinand with a Castillian noble,first with Pacheco's daughter and then with Isabel was to have the muscle to carry their foreign policy.
Another side effect would have been a much weaker Habsburg dinasty as Ferdinand was the one who married 2 of his heirs to them while the Castillian policy was always to ally with France and remain the main force in the Peninsula with cordial relations with Portugal and blood ties with Aragon.
So if for whatever reason Ferdinand never became king of Castile we would have seen a more isolated and commercial Castile and even a franco-Castillian union which by the way was an idea that the king of France had in the XVI century but flooped when Isabel chose Ferdinand over the duke of anjou.
 
Portuguese suspicions of lands beyond the Azores had existed from the time of Portuguese settlement of the islands. Driftwood of unknown varieties would wash ashore along the various islands regularly. Modern Portuguese speculation was that this suspicion was the reason for the Portuguese to demand the Portuguese-Spanish western line of control to be 200 miles west of the Azores instead of being along the Azores as the Spanish demanded. This leads into the speculation that Portuguese captains were told to swing more westerly than required while sailing to India, in hopes of finding something.
The Portuguese were cluless about what was on the other side of the ocean.They just claimed more miles because Ferdinand was obsessed with Melilla and the Portuguese just claim more land for Melilla.If Brazil exits is because of Melilla,the Portuguese estimates where wrong at first by a magnitude of 2 and if Ferdinand wasn't in the negotiation table Portugal would have gotten nothing
 

Lusitania

Donor
The Portuguese were cluless about what was on the other side of the ocean.They just claimed more miles because Ferdinand was obsessed with Melilla and the Portuguese just claim more land for Melilla.If Brazil exits is because of Melilla,the Portuguese estimates where wrong at first by a magnitude of 2 and if Ferdinand wasn't in the negotiation table Portugal would have gotten nothing

The Portuguese had no idea what lay there that is true but they knew something lay there. Yes they used Melilla as a bargaining chip because the accord between Portugal and Castile/Spain stated the African continent was the domain of the Portuguese crown.
 
The Portuguese had no idea what lay there that is true but they knew something lay there. Yes they used Melilla as a bargaining chip because the accord between Portugal and Castile/Spain stated the African continent was the domain of the Portuguese crown.
Portugal didn't use Melilla at all.It was brought by Ferdinand and the Portuguese agreed to give the town to Castille in exchange of moving the line westwards.
 

Lusitania

Donor
Portugal didn't use Melilla at all.It was brought by Ferdinand and the Portuguese agreed to give the town to Castille in exchange of moving the line westwards.
alright but there was no indication the Portuguese were willing to agree to Spanish terms with any negotiations. It seems like the Spanish were dictating the terms. What we know is that there were negotiations, and that the Spanish and Portuguese were trying to divide the new world between them. Spain wanted Melilla and Portugal agreed on condition of boundary being moved 200 miles west. Since we not there and both countries' historians trying to spin the outcome to be in their nationalist interest we not sure the reasons. Did the Portuguese guess there was something there before hand? Where the Basque and Portuguese fishermen's secret fishing grounds off the grand banks known to either monarch? All we can do is speculate.
 
The Portuguese were cluless about what was on the other side of the ocean.They just claimed more miles because Ferdinand was obsessed with Melilla and the Portuguese just claim more land for Melilla.If Brazil exits is because of Melilla,the Portuguese estimates where wrong at first by a magnitude of 2 and if Ferdinand wasn't in the negotiation table Portugal would have gotten nothing


Could the Portuguese change right of conquering of Kingdom of Fez for Canary Islands?
 
Could the Portuguese change right of conquering of Kingdom of Fez for Canary Islands?
Doubtful.The canary islands were key for Castillian ambitions as it is a key logistical location for the expansion in Africa and America.There is a reason why there were comflicts for the islands to begin with
 
Doubtful.The canary islands were key for Castillian ambitions as it is a key logistical location for the expansion in Africa and America.There is a reason why there were comflicts for the islands to begin with

I thought so. But, maybe the Spanish/Castillians could use Morocco to try overland route to Africa?
 
alright but there was no indication the Portuguese were willing to agree to Spanish terms with any negotiations. It seems like the Spanish were dictating the terms. What we know is that there were negotiations, and that the Spanish and Portuguese were trying to divide the new world between them. Spain wanted Melilla and Portugal agreed on condition of boundary being moved 200 miles west. Since we not there and both countries' historians trying to spin the outcome to be in their nationalist interest we not sure the reasons. Did the Portuguese guess there was something there before hand? Where the Basque and Portuguese fishermen's secret fishing grounds off the grand banks known to either monarch? All we can do is speculate.
Oh but those fishing grounds were so much farther North, I doubt they'd be considered to have anything to do with any driftwood washed ashore on the Azores, let alone lead anyone to the hypothesis that there's a huge continent connecting the two phenomena (which it likely wasn't, since the way currents go the wood came from Caribbean islands in all likelihood). No reason why newfoundland shouldn't be just another Iceland/Greenland/Faeroer type of place far North. Nothing to do with either Azores or India.
 
While noone is accusing the Portuguese of knowing there's this massive western continent, looking for another Azores is another matter.
 
Fernando III makes excellent points.

Throughout the Middle Ages, France and Castille were usually allies. After 1280s, the link with Sicily made Aragon at odds with France over Italy.
 
If the POD is no marriage between Fernando and Isabella, there are massive butterflies affecting just about all the European dynasties. There are fewer butterflies if the marriage takes place but there is no surviving issue.

Whoever is heir or heiress to Castille will marry someone else other than Fernando. This could result in a French connection, as posited, or a union of Castille and Portugal. The latter is more likely and has obvious butterflies.

This means no Carlos I, Felipe II, or the other Spanish Hapsburgs and affects all the latter's marriage alignments.

Philip of Burgundy does not marry Joanna, who doesn't exist ITTL. The Netherlands remain connected to Austria. This means there is either no Dutch revolt or the revolt succeeds completely, so there is no splitting of the Netherlands.

With Castille still allied with France, France is alot stronger. France is going to get stronger after seeing off the Plantegenets and the Burgundians. Diplomatically, having Castille join basically the anti-French coalition (Aragon, Engand, Burgundy) made a huge difference just in terms of manpower. And Castille is stronger than in the Middle Ages because of the discovery of the Americas, more so if they swallow Portugal, though they won't be throwing their weight around in the rest of Europe unlike IOTL, there is no reason for them to. France should at least get Milan out of this.

A potential knock on effect happens if Elizabeth of England decides she needs to marry after all, and to marry a Hapsburg, because England being isolated against a too powerful France is too much of a problem.
 
Top