WI Soviet Carbon Nanotubes?

To a certain degree the WI happened in OTL but I want to explore the possibilities of an earlier discovery of nanotubes and fullerene in general.

Option I.

In 1952 L. V. Radushkevich and V. M. Lukyanovich published clear images of 50 nanometer diameter tubes made of carbon in the Soviet Journal of Physical Chemistry.
This discovery was largely unnoticed, as the article was published in the Russian language, and Western scientists' access to Soviet press was limited during the Cold War. It is likely that carbon nanotubes were produced before this date, but the invention of the transmission electron microscope (TEM) allowed direct visualization of these structures.

Option II

Somebody investigating carbon arc lamps analyzes the soot they produce and discovers fullerene (including nano tubes).

And yes I want to incorporate this in my timeline :). I am just not sure what and how much is possible. Every outlandish idea is welcome as long it is not ASB.
 
Well, considering that today they have few commercial uses, id say not much.

Looking at wiki, it seems like the primary use is as a fancy additive that increases the strength of carbon fiber composites. With other current and near term uses being high tech tech, electronics, atomic force microscopes.

And thats after 20 years of intensive work with modern tech.


Since none of that tech was around in the 50s, even carbon composites, i think the impact would be very minimal for some time.

Heck, it might even delay something more useful if they redirect efforts from that to nano tubes. Eg if they try incorporating nanotubes into ICs early, it wont be productive, and will slow silicon improvements, like finer scale lithography. Defects would go through the roof, so largw chips would be impossible.
 

Thande

Donor
The actual impact on technology would, as Dathi says, not be great just because we're still trying to figure out how to use them now and there was less of a technical base at the time. But I would argue that they (especially fullerenes) would represent a massive cultural impact on science and popular images of it. The OTL discovery of fullerenes by Harry Kroto* was a big, newsworthy thing that impacted people with little interest in science--just as how the discovery of the structure of DNA did in the 1950s. The reason for buckminsterfullerence being special is twofold:

1) The structure looks like a football, and people are struck with wonder at the idea that there is a chemical structure from nature that is the exact same shape as a football, and

2) More importantly, one thing about chemistry just about everyone remembers from school is that there are two allotropes of carbon, diamond and graphite. People are fascinated by the idea that a commonplace cheap material and one of the most valuable in the world are made from the same element, and so we have things like Superman crushing coal into diamonds etc. This is well known in the popular imagination. So someone coming along and discovering a third form was earth-shattering.

The fact that this would happen in the USSR would be a massive boost to Soviet science's reputation, just like Yuri Gagarin's flight, and would lend more credence to their claims to be at the cutting edge and going to new places that hidebound capitalist science could not reach. So while there would be little direct impact on technology or materials, the human impact would be immense.

* Yes I know there were other people involved, but as an employee of the University of Sheffield I am contractually obliged to mention Harry Kroto every time buckminsterfullerene is mentioned :p
 
The actual impact on technology would, as Dathi says, not be great just because we're still trying to figure out how to use them now and there was less of a technical base at the time. But I would argue that they (especially fullerenes) would represent a massive cultural impact on science and popular images of it. The OTL discovery of fullerenes by Harry Kroto* was a big, newsworthy thing that impacted people with little interest in science--just as how the discovery of the structure of DNA did in the 1950s. The reason for buckminsterfullerence being special is twofold:

1) The structure looks like a football, and people are struck with wonder at the idea that there is a chemical structure from nature that is the exact same shape as a football, and

2) More importantly, one thing about chemistry just about everyone remembers from school is that there are two allotropes of carbon, diamond and graphite. People are fascinated by the idea that a commonplace cheap material and one of the most valuable in the world are made from the same element, and so we have things like Superman crushing coal into diamonds etc. This is well known in the popular imagination. So someone coming along and discovering a third form was earth-shattering.

The fact that this would happen in the USSR would be a massive boost to Soviet science's reputation, just like Yuri Gagarin's flight, and would lend more credence to their claims to be at the cutting edge and going to new places that hidebound capitalist science could not reach. So while there would be little direct impact on technology or materials, the human impact would be immense.

* Yes I know there were other people involved, but as an employee of the University of Sheffield I am contractually obliged to mention Harry Kroto every time buckminsterfullerene is mentioned :p
Hadnt thought of that. Good point.
 
The actual impact on technology would, as Dathi says, not be great just because we're still trying to figure out how to use them now and there was less of a technical base at the time. But I would argue that they (especially fullerenes) would represent a massive cultural impact on science and popular images of it. The OTL discovery of fullerenes by Harry Kroto* was a big, newsworthy thing that impacted people with little interest in science--just as how the discovery of the structure of DNA did in the 1950s. The reason for buckminsterfullerence being special is twofold:

1) The structure looks like a football, and people are struck with wonder at the idea that there is a chemical structure from nature that is the exact same shape as a football, and

2) More importantly, one thing about chemistry just about everyone remembers from school is that there are two allotropes of carbon, diamond and graphite. People are fascinated by the idea that a commonplace cheap material and one of the most valuable in the world are made from the same element, and so we have things like Superman crushing coal into diamonds etc. This is well known in the popular imagination. So someone coming along and discovering a third form was earth-shattering.

The fact that this would happen in the USSR would be a massive boost to Soviet science's reputation, just like Yuri Gagarin's flight, and would lend more credence to their claims to be at the cutting edge and going to new places that hidebound capitalist science could not reach. So while there would be little direct impact on technology or materials, the human impact would be immense.

* Yes I know there were other people involved, but as an employee of the University of Sheffield I am contractually obliged to mention Harry Kroto every time buckminsterfullerene is mentioned :p
It should be noted that the Soviets were quite interested in Fuller's work.
 
Well, considering that today they have few commercial uses, id say not much.

Looking at wiki, it seems like the primary use is as a fancy additive that increases the strength of carbon fiber composites. With other current and near term uses being high tech tech, electronics, atomic force microscopes.

And thats after 20 years of intensive work with modern tech.


Since none of that tech was around in the 50s, even carbon composites, i think the impact would be very minimal for some time.

Heck, it might even delay something more useful if they redirect efforts from that to nano tubes. Eg if they try incorporating nanotubes into ICs early, it wont be productive, and will slow silicon improvements, like finer scale lithography. Defects would go through the roof, so largw chips would be impossible.

They would be a lot more useful if they could keep them from developing so many defects.
 
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"* Yes I know there were other people involved, but as an employee of the University of Sheffield I am contractually obliged to mention Harry Kroto every time buckminsterfullerene is mentioned "

I sympathise, as an employee of the University of Manchester we have to have "graphene" tattooed on our foreheads.

As others have already mentioned, an earlier discovery of the existence of carbon nanotubes would probably have limited effect on technological advances to date due to the difficulties in purifying CNTs. It took years for reliable purities of CNTs could be produced after their 'discovery' in Japan and only then could their potential begin to be investigated in a serious manner. But the carbon revolution is underway. C60 and other fullerenes are getting closer to the marketplace in a variety of fields, not just electronics, and graphene research is going to tie up a large chunk of UK science funding for a while.
 
Carbon nanotubes and fullerenes in the 50s is like giving a cave man an iPod. No offense to you, my cave-men ancestors of 20000B.C., or to Late Steve Jobs. :p

What do u think they can do with it? Even with all the tech today we are just starting to workout practical applications of these revolutionary new materials.
 
What do u think they can do with it? Even with all the tech today we are just starting to workout practical applications of these revolutionary new materials.

I was just hoping for some interesting ideas. Something like this for example:

Mad Bad Rabbit said:
What if some observant arc-lamp inventor had discovered fullerenes
in the 1890s instead of the 1980s? ("why does tolulene dissolve
this sooty gunk that I expected to be nearly pure carbon?"). Say
by the 1920's the basic structure of C60 and nanotubes is known.
Luckily for Soviet organic chemists of the 1930s, nobody detects
anything subversive or anti-socialist about carbon nanotube theory
and Stalin is interested in the potential of ultrastrong plastics
reinforced with the fibers.....
 
Several years ago I helped out the heir of of the very few persons in Eastern Europe who actually had original research (cold plasma, about 5,000 degrees) with an intellectual property issue, so somewhat can tell you the communist atmosphere of at times utterly brilliant ideas, tons of political posturing, and practically sterile technological advance. The usual ticket was to reverse engineer western goodies to fit what was needed for their military complex.

If it was developed into an issue worth licensing, expect humungous rates. For all their maintining of lets all get together attitude, those organizations were done by some of the most astute bargaining known to human history. Tetris game is a good example from what I heard. They would eventually lose superiority regardless since they could never compete with the west once the field was known to be open.
 
This is a rough draft for a timeline close to our own. A modified version will be part of my Martian timeline. But I am not sure about the scientific plausibility/details so any help is much appreciated.

1902 The ultramicroscope is developed by Richard Adolf Zsigmondy and Henry Siedentopf, working for Carl Zeiss AG. Applying bright sunlight for illumination they were able to determine the size of 4 nm small nanoparticles in cranberry glass (OTL)

1907 Zsigmondy further improves the ultramicroscope by among other things using an artificial light source, in form of a carbon arc lamp. Somehow he discovers that tolulene dissolves the sooty gunk (the lamp produces) that he expected to be nearly pure carbon. (I need some help to make this part plausible. So if anybody finds a way this might happen realistically, I would be very grateful.)

1912 He presents the immersion ultramicroscope to the world, which allows the observation of suspended nanoparticles in defined fluidic volumes (OTL). Still interested in the soot, he uses his microscope and discovers the existence of nano tubes or graphene tubes.

1913 The discovery finds its way into the broader population by for the reasons described by Thande. One of its first practical applications is the creation of stronger plastic material, inspired by Bakelite.

1918 The “Carbon Fever” hasn't quiet vanished yet and the detailed studies of graphite oxide paper by V. Kohlschütter and P. Haenni get some attention. Graphite oxide was first prepared by Oxford chemist Benjamin C. Brodie in 1859, by treating graphite with a mixture of potassium chlorate and fuming nitric acid.

19XX (Don't know when this discovery can be made yet.) It is discovered that using the same chemicals potassium chlorate and fuming nitric acid on a multi-walled carbon nano tube solution cuts them open and produces single layer graphene. (graphene as we know it in OTL).

1972 The MCA and Philips decided to combine their efforts: they first publicly demonstrated the video laser disc. A researcher from the Philips Natuurkundig Laboratorium (PNL) in Eindhoven has the idea to use the laser disc prototype to create cheap graphene layer on discs.

1973 Member of the OAPEC (consisting of the Arab members of OPEC, plus Egypt, Syria and Tunisia) proclaimed an oil embargo. The first oil crisis lasts until 1974.

1976 Researcher at the PNL reveal that they devised an efficient method for producing high-quality graphene sheets utilizing (comparatively) cheap consumer video disc player.

1978 A major breakthrough happens. A researcher in the PNL, wired a small square of their high quality carbon sheets up to a lightbulb. He stumbled upon an energy storage medium with revolutionary potential. The ultracapacitor is born. The name distinguish it from Standard Oil's supercapacitator that came out in the same year.

1979 The second oil crisis in the United States occurs in the wake of the Iranian Revolution. As a reaction to the situation Carter holds his famous “Grapheen (Graphene-Green Energy)” or “America Fuck Yeah! (George Carlin's interpretation)” speech, reviving America confidence in the future.

2001 President-elect Al Gore drives to his inauguration in his electric limousine.
 
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We just found a possible application for the discovery mention in OTL that could have been made much earlier as an addition to the mini timeline above.

"Silk—the stuff of lustrous, glamorous clothing—is very strong. Researchers now report a clever way to make the gossamer threads even stronger and tougher: by feeding silkworms graphene or single-walled carbon nanotubes (Nano Lett. 2016, DOI: 10.1021/acs.nanolett.6b03597). (….) To make carbon-reinforced silk,Yingying Zhangand her colleagues at Tsinghua University fed the worms mulberry leaves sprayed with aqueous solutions containing 0.2% by weight of either carbon nanotubes or graphene and then collected the silk after the worms spun their cocoons, as is done in standard silk production. (….) In contrast to regular silk, the carbon-enhanced silks are twice as tough and can withstand at least 50% higher stress before breaking." (https://www.scientificamerican.com/...k-after-eating-carbon-nanotubes-and-graphene/)

Unfortunately it wasn’t known at the time this thread was made so I think this justifies a little necro especially since it adds to an already existing (mini) timeline.
 
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