WI Sonic remained in 2D?

[oreocruncher]

As we all know, the Sonic the Hedgehog franchise had a very problematic transition to 3D (the "Polygon Ceiling", as it was known as), which was said to be resolved with Sonic Colors and Sonic Generations, for the most part...

I know that Sonic transitioning to 3D was somewhat inevitable, given that Mario had with Super Mario 64, and there was this general trend in video games to "move to 3D" back then in the late 90s, as can be seen with Final Fantasy VII, Metal Gear Solid, Grand Theft Auto III, Mortal Kombat 4, hell even Contra (with the Appaloosa titles, which required 3D glasses...) and Castlevania did too! (Though it kinda sucked for them...).

On the other hand, it is possible to just have 3D graphics, but retain 2D gameplay, as would be epitomized by the New Super Mario Bros games, or even just remain in 2D, as is the case with most Castlevania titles like Symphony of the Night, and The King of Fighters series...

But would it be possible for Sonic to go that direction back then?
I mean, Megaman (well, the X series at least) remained in 2D, with sprites and the like...but I don't know...

 

[pattersonautobody]

No. Sega was not dead yet and by making Sonic 2d, it conceded defeat.

 

[oreocruncher]

No. Sega was not dead yet and by making Sonic 2d, it conceded defeat.

What if it was 2D gameplay, but 3D graphics, like with the New Super Mario Bros games, or the most recent Donkey Kong Country titles?

 

[pattersonautobody]

THe order of the day was a 3d environment. A replay of 1994 DOnkey Kong Country wouldn't do.

 

[Consumerist]

If you're familar with the development of the canceled game Sonic Xtreme it was going to have a mix of 2d and 3d gameplay. Of course if you are familar then you also know that Sega of Japan hated everything to do with that game by the end of its development for mostly unsound reasons and probably wouldn't want to do anything too reminiscent of it.

 

[Nivek]

If you're familar with the development of the canceled game Sonic Xtreme it was going to have a mix of 2d and 3d gameplay. Of course if you are familar then you also know that Sega of Japan hated everything to do with that game by the end of its development for mostly unsound reasons and probably wouldn't want to do anything too reminiscent of it.

etto Sonic X.treme controversy was pretty infamosu and more complex than that(but mr naka being a dick not helped at all), the issue is, sonic team, sti and other found a lot of wall in how make sonic in 3d(and the most infamous one, should sonic being around speed or more platfomring....).

 

[Urcea]

I was under the impression that Sonic Adventure 2 was both well received and sold well - I'm guessing that offering is too late?

 

[oreocruncher]

I was under the impression that Sonic Adventure 2 was both well received and sold well - I'm guessing that offering is too late?

It was I think, but there were some issues with that game that are considered to have worsened with subsequent ones...plus it's been considered to not age well...
Then again, the latter point is the case for a lot of video games anyhow...

 

[woweed]

I was under the impression that Sonic Adventure 2 was both well received and sold well - I'm guessing that offering is too late?

Some people say Sonic went to shit was after Sonic 3, Some say Sonic Adventure 2 was the last good game and others say it never went to shit at all. Those are the three main camps.

 

[Thande]

I don't think it was possible at the time given the general attitude that 3D was the inevitable next step in gaming. At the time, the idea that new 2D platformers would be being made, played, enjoyed and be successful in 2015 would have been regarded as utterly bizarre.

Having said that, I recall it being pointed out that one problem with the Saturn was that it had been too designed around 2D rather than 3D games, so I suppose if we can handwave the idea of them producing new frontline 2D Sonic games in an era where that would be regarded as embarrassingly backward, then I imagine the system hardware would render them very well. Something similar in graphics to Sonic Rush on the DS in OTL but a decade earlier perhaps.

 

[oreocruncher]

Having said that, I recall it being pointed out that one problem with the Saturn was that it had been too designed around 2D rather than 3D games, so I suppose if we can handwave the idea of them producing new frontline 2D Sonic games in an era where that would be regarded as embarrassingly backward, then I imagine the system hardware would render them very well. Something similar in graphics to Sonic Rush on the DS in OTL but a decade earlier perhaps.

Yea I read that too...
Problem is that Bernie Stolar was at Sega, and he preferred 3D games over 2D ones...
He's said to be the man responsible for screwing over the Saturn overseas, as he prevented a lot of good 2D games on the Saturn from being released from Japan...

And before he was at Sega, he was at Sony, with the same policy...
It is said that Capcom blackmailed Sony into allowing them to make 2D Megaman games on PS1 by threatening to withhold releasing Resident Evil 2 on the system...
Though in Capcom's case, they did make a new Megaman series in order to fulfill the "3D games" requirement (Megaman Legends/Rockman Dash), which I think Sonic did too with Sonic Adventure OTL...
And Castlevania had Symphony of the Night on the PS1, which was in 2D, as I've mentioned, though it didn't do too well at first...It only became regarded as one of the best games on the system, and in the franchise later on...

 

[Heavy]

The fans would eat it up either way because Sonic fans would let a serial killer into their house if he was dressed as Amy Rose.

 

[Thande]

Yea I read that too...
Problem is that Bernie Stolar was at Sega, and he preferred 3D games over 2D ones...
He's said to be the man responsible for screwing over the Saturn overseas, as he prevented a lot of good 2D games on the Saturn from being released from Japan...

And before he was at Sega, he was at Sony, with the same policy...
It is said that Capcom blackmailed Sony into allowing them to make 2D Megaman games on PS1 by threatening to withhold releasing Resident Evil 2 on the system...
Though in Capcom's case, they did make a new Megaman series in order to fulfill the "3D games" requirement (Megaman Legends/Rockman Dash), which I think Sonic did too with Sonic Adventure OTL...
And Castlevania had Symphony of the Night on the PS1, which was in 2D, as I've mentioned, though it didn't do too well at first...It only became regarded as one of the best games on the system, and in the franchise later on...

That's true, those are good examples. CastleVania also had a poorly received 3D game (or possibly two?) on the N64 so I think both of those are, as you imply, cases of the companies hedging their bets and producing both 3D and 2D games. There is the possibility of Sega doing that with Sonic, I guess, analogously to how they had kept making 8-bit Sonic games during the Mega Drive's lifetime perhaps.

 

[oreocruncher]

That's true, those are good examples. CastleVania also had a poorly received 3D game (or possibly two?) on the N64 so I think both of those are, as you imply, cases of the companies hedging their bets and producing both 3D and 2D games. There is the possibility of Sega doing that with Sonic, I guess, analogously to how they had kept making 8-bit Sonic games during the Mega Drive's lifetime perhaps.

It was 2, Castlevania 64 and Castlevania: Legacy of Darkness, the latter of which was a "gaiden game" (as is called in Japan).

And I think that could be possible...Didn't Sonic do so with the Sonic Advance games?

 

[RySenkari]

Have the 32X do better, maybe? The failure of the fourth-and-a-half generation systems meant that there wasn't really a "bridge" between the 2D systems of the fourth generation and the 3D systems of the fifth generation, hence you had all the gaming companies wanting to just leap right to 3D without any kind of transition.

 

[JamesHunter]

Have the 32X do better, maybe? The failure of the fourth-and-a-half generation systems meant that there wasn't really a "bridge" between the 2D systems of the fourth generation and the 3D systems of the fifth generation, hence you had all the gaming companies wanting to just leap right to 3D without any kind of transition.

The 4.5's were a dead end, by the time the 32x was ready so was the Saturn. In general terms it all boils down to Sega's massive mistakes in the mid '90's, the botched launch of the Saturn did absolutely no good, as well as not having a true sonic game for it (Sonic having been the Mega Drive killer app for most people).

In general terms 2-D sonic's did always work better (I prefer the 2-d stages of generations) but that transition was always going to be tried at some point and the irony is that Sonic adventure is pretty good. It hasn't aged to well of course but playing it recently the only true problem other than the aging graphics is the camera, but that's a common problem in 3-d platformers. I was playing click clock wood on Banjo Kazzoie the other day and cursing as the camera kept getting stuck behind the wall, right as bear and bird were on a platform above a very high drop and no matter what I did I couldn't get it at the right angle.

In truth Sonic Adventure and it's sequel proved that you could convert the frantic pace of 2-d sonic to 3-d. The problem was that they had to tack on stuff that didn't fit if it had just been the sonic, Tails and Knuckles paths it would have been seen as a fine game. The Amy Rose, Big the cat and ED-209 sections are a plot tumor and they would have been better off simply making a few extra levels for the other characters (also the game play for those 3 is crap).

After Sega stopped making consoles the sonic games got badly messed up. The 2-d stuff on the handhelds turtle'd back to the sort of thing that was being made in the 90's and while alot of fun it wasn't innovating any more. In contrast from Heroes onward's the console games tried going every direction but traditional platformer and quickly lost their audience. End result we're had one, maybe two good sonic console games in the past fifteen years. The Mega Drive ratio was half a dozen good games in five years (and one dud but the less said about Sonic 3-d the better).

If Sega of America had recognized there was still a major market for 2-d games and pushed hard for a Sonic 4 on the Saturn then that might have been able to help sales. However you also need to butterfly the "Surprise launch" which alienated half the retailers and all of the third party developers. Also fixing the Saturn's internal problems that made it a pain to develop for would be useful as well.

Also have Bernie Stolar either be sacked quickly or never let near Sega and things would have gone alot better. If the Saturn launched on time and with a strong game line up then it would be neck and neck with Sony out of the gate. Sony would probably still pull in front, simply because it inherited most of Nintendo's alienated third party developers, but Sega could retain a solid second place.

If that happened it would probably be Nintendo's fall from grace we'd have been endlessly discussing the last twenty years. Although as in OTL Nintendo does have the advantage that most of the games that get people to buy their machine's tend to be first party, they can spend the next ten years in the same niche market they had with the N64 and GC and still make money. In contrast once Sega Peed off everybody from developers to fans they're done.