WI: Socialism failed to take over Russia, but was established in Germany?

If your criteria is getting fed properly, you can check the amount of malnourished people in the US. Also, people didn't starve in the Communist bloc outside of wartime so that argument is a reduction to the absurd...

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You do remember millions were starved in the Ukraine in the early 1930's, right? That was outside of wartime. Also, the Great Leap Forward killed millions. Also, in the USA, progressives were the main people to pass labor laws, not socialists.
 
You do remember millions were starved in the Ukraine in the early 1930's, right? That was outside of wartime. Also, the Great Leap Forward killed millions. Also, in the USA, progressives were the main people to pass labor laws, not socialists.

In the USA yes, but in Germany, France and the UK it was socialists that implemented them.
 
I did forget the OP, thank you.

Speaking of which, I think it has been established that German socialism, if brought about without the corruption of Lenninism, would resemble council communism/syndicalism/workplace democracy et al, which is radically different from the OTL experiment.

But then again it makes sense because OTL all the socialist states were created in agrarian, underdeveloped, un-industrialized, exploited, colonized or feudal societies. Revolutionary socialism in a modern, industrial society would be unique and completely distinct because the material conditions would allow direct control by the workers.
 

Deleted member 1487

So, say that the Bolsheviks failed to take over Russia and as a result the USSR ,and it's influence on Socialism, is butterflied away leaving no (awful Soviet) model for other countries to follow, which means different types of socialism can come to fruition.

However, in Germany, let's say that after a loss in World War 1, like OTL, instead of the Nazis taking over, it's the socialists. How does German Socialism look like? What does it do? What are it's goals? And how do other nations react to it? This Socialism should look very different from OTL established socialist nations as Germany is already an industrialized state, of the likes that Karl Marx said were ideal for socialism. He said ,iirc, first Primitives Communism, then feudalistic, then mercantilism, then capitalism, then socialism, and finally Communism, or something along those degrees.
It is impossible for the Socialists like the USPD or KPD to take over Germany, it was far too conservative/burgoiuse (sp?) and nationalistic to ever have enough people buy in. There were too many soldiers that were anti-revolution, while the USPD/Spartakists/KPD were at most like 12-15% of the population...in 1932 their peak, not in 1919 even. The German Soviets were crushed the second the soldiers came home to fight the 'betrayers of the nation'. Even when the Soviets in Germany tried to reach out to the Allies to get recognition and support they were rebuffed because the capitalist/imperialists didn't want them in power as an example to their working class either. Without the successful Bolsheviks as a model for the Germans, there would be even less external support and less internal support. So they lose even harder.
 
Are you sure that the KPD would have less support in the event of failed Bolsheviks? In that situation, they're not seen as a boogeyman in the same way. Anyways, it seems like the real obstacle is the popularity of the SPD, so we'd need to think of how they might be discredited among the German working class.
 
Are you sure that the KPD would have less support in the event of failed Bolsheviks? In that situation, they're not seen as a boogeyman in the same way. Anyways, it seems like the real obstacle is the popularity of the SPD, so we'd need to think of how they might be discredited among the German working class.

Make them fuck up the Great Depression recovery?
 

Deleted member 1487

Are you sure that the KPD would have less support in the event of failed Bolsheviks? In that situation, they're not seen as a boogeyman in the same way. Anyways, it seems like the real obstacle is the popularity of the SPD, so we'd need to think of how they might be discredited among the German working class.
Yes, they were the heretical elements of the SPD that even the SPD couldn't stomach. If they started the OTL uprising they'd be wiped out all the same.
 
Yes, they were the heretical elements of the SPD that even the SPD couldn't stomach. If they started the OTL uprising they'd be wiped out all the same.

Nobody to the SPD's left has a chance anyways if the SPD has anything to say about it, so again, I think a necessary precondition is their significant weakening and probably no uprising either.
 
Speaking of which, I think it has been established that German socialism, if brought about without the corruption of Lenninism, would resemble council communism/syndicalism/workplace democracy et al, which is radically different from the OTL experiment.

That is my guess, if somehow we handwave socialism/ communism in.
 
One thing we are neglecting is, what is the impact - particularly on Western (German, Italian, French, British, etc) socialists - of Lavr Kornilov's successful putsch and crushing of the Bolsheviks, Mensheviks, and SRs, to then go on to form a reactionary, counterrevolutionary Russian government?

Does it show them that its better to work within the system as reformers, lest they get Kornilov'd/Freikorp'd themselves like the Russian socialists did?
 
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It is impossible for the Socialists like the USPD or KPD to take over Germany, it was far too conservative/burgoiuse (sp?) and nationalistic to ever have enough people buy in. There were too many soldiers that were anti-revolution, while the USPD/Spartakists/KPD were at most like 12-15% of the population...in 1932 their peak, not in 1919 even. The German Soviets were crushed the second the soldiers came home to fight the 'betrayers of the nation'. Even when the Soviets in Germany tried to reach out to the Allies to get recognition and support they were rebuffed because the capitalist/imperialists didn't want them in power as an example to their working class either. Without the successful Bolsheviks as a model for the Germans, there would be even less external support and less internal support. So they lose even harder.
In the 1920 German Federal elections, the USPD received over five million votes or 17.9%, the second largest vote share only behind the SPD itself. The USPD ended up splitting over the 21 conditions of entry into the Comintern but it was already divided in many ways with the pacifists and the revolutionaries not having much common ground beyond opposition to the war. It's true that the revolutionary socialists didn't have as much support amongst the soldiers as comparatively the Bolsheviks did in Russia but it's also conceivable that without the awkward situation of the Bolsheviks over the border and the Brest-Litovsk treaty helping bring one front to an end of sorts that the war drags on and the situation would be different to say the least.

In fact, between 1919 and 1930 the 'left' in the USPD/KPD/SPD were consistently achieving close to half or over half the vote in parliamentary elections. There are a lot of events that could have taken a different turn to split the SPD, bolster the forces of the revolutionaries, in whatever form they end up organising, and disrupt the attempts of the right-wing to suppress them.
 

Deleted member 1487

In the 1920 German Federal elections, the USPD received over five million votes or 17.9%, the second largest vote share only behind the SPD itself. The USPD ended up splitting over the 21 conditions of entry into the Comintern but it was already divided in many ways with the pacifists and the revolutionaries not having much common ground beyond opposition to the war. It's true that the revolutionary socialists didn't have as much support amongst the soldiers as comparatively the Bolsheviks did in Russia but it's also conceivable that without the awkward situation of the Bolsheviks over the border and the Brest-Litovsk treaty helping bring one front to an end of sorts that the war drags on and the situation would be different to say the least.

In fact, between 1919 and 1930 the 'left' in the USPD/KPD/SPD were consistently achieving close to half or over half the vote in parliamentary elections. There are a lot of events that could have taken a different turn to split the SPD, bolster the forces of the revolutionaries, in whatever form they end up organising, and disrupt the attempts of the right-wing to suppress them.
Thanks for the numbers. It's not that different from what I said and not all of them it sounded like were true Socialists as much as the general Left that didn't fit into the German version of the Labour Party. The SPD was pretty center left for Germany, which is why the rest of the left split off; they were not a revolutionary party and were very much about working within the system to get moderate reforms and couldn't get on board with the right wing. So while the 'Left' in Germany were near half the voting public...the SPD did not work with the parties to their left. They were a center minded party about working within the system and pretty invested in it, which again is why the rest of the Left didn't want to work with them by 1918.
 
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