WI: smarter Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact; can the Axis *guarantee* a win?

Frequenting alt-history forums for years, it seems to me nearly all Axis victory timelines violate at least one of these truisms, and are hence prima facie implausible:

- The Axis are almost certainly destined to lose any war against the Soviets
- The Axis are CERTAINLY destined to lose any war with the USA
- Stalemate with Britain isn't an option for Germany since it will eventually bomb Germany to bits (conventionally at first; nuclear down the road)
- Stalemate isn't an option for Japan either, since the Royal Navy will eventually wipe out all its shipping
- Britain can't be forced out of the war directly, and neither can it be starved out (Royal Navy too powerful, Britain self-sufficient in food, and the USA would never allow it)

Given all that, he's my idea for an optimum Axis strategy given a 1939 POD. It requires the Axis powers to coordinate their broad strategy, but other than that I don't think anything is unreasonable (besides the reasonableness required on the part of Hitler, Mussolini, and the Japanese leadership of course). I propose to you that it would be IMPOSSIBLE for Britain to successfully counter such a strategy if it was employed competently.

POD: Hitler and Stalin recognize the obvious: that any complete partitioning of the Baltic region will make war between Germany and the Soviet Union inevitable. So instead of the OTL doomed-to-fail M-R Treaty, they come up with something much more durable.

The Soviets will annex Estonia, Latvia, and the ethnically Belarusian/Ukrainian areas of Eastern Poland, while Germany will annex the Corridor and the German areas of Western Poland. The rump Poland, however, will be joined to Lithuania in a revived Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, and it, along with Finland, will be made strong armed neutrals, bound by treaty never to align with either Germany or the SU, and to defend themselves with all force from any future invasion by either.

I'm not sure whether Poland would have to be totally defeated as in OTL to accept such terms, but it doesn't matter either way. War with the Soviets is now off the table for the foreseeable future.

Next the WAllies declare war on Germany for carving up Poland, and as OTL Germany occupies Denmark, Norway, and finally defeats France (with so many troops freed up not occupying Poland or garrisoning the border against the Soviets as heavily this goes down even smoother). After annexing Alsace-Lorraine Hitler has now achieved what he set out to do upon becoming Fuhrer: uniting all the German people in one Riech. He doesn't get his lebensraum, but then that was never realistically possible.

Now the hard part: to get the British to recognize Germany's triumph...

Instead of decimating its airforce pointlessly in a Battle of Britain, Germany instead focuses on downing British bombers over Europe. Similarly, the development effort that went into the V-weapons is focused on anti-aircraft technology. Nor does Germany attempt (vainly) to starve Britain with an all-out u-boat offensive, instead directing the bulk of its submarine force to ports in Italy and Italian North Africa. This strategy has numerous advantages:

- Doesn't unnecessarily piss off the British people (the aim, after all, is peace with Britain)
- Doesn't gain Britain sympathy in the US (and hence more lend-lease) by sinking American ships and flattening British cities
- Minimizes German aircrew and aircraft loses, while maximizing Commonwealth losses
- Doesn't 'teach' the British anti-u-boat-warfare in home waters

Germany's best and only strategy for convincing Britain to give up the war, IMHO, is an all-out North Africa / Middle Eastern / South Asian offensive in concert with Italy and Japan, aimed ultimately at threatening and if need be ending the British hold over India and the Persian Gulf. To this end Hitler first makes clear to Mussolini that he won't be starting any inconvenient wars in the Balkans, and will instead be richly rewarded with a reborn Roman Empire in Egypt and the Levant if he follows along and all goes to plan.

Step one is an invasion of Malta, which should be easily achievable at this date, given the total concentration of German and Italian energies. With a sea route from Italy to Libya mostly-secure (far more so than OTL), Germany with Italy in tow strikes out across the desert for Egypt. This is a tall order, and will require a huge logistical effort, but with *ALL* of Germany and its allies effort focused on the task it should be a slam-dunk. The U-boat fleet will meanwhile focus on destroying British shipping in the Med, out of reach of most British air cover. Suez should be in Axis hands, and the Eastern Mediterranean an Axis lake, by the end of 1941 at the latest (although exactly when doesn't matter, so long as its the inevitable outcome which I think it is).

Meanwhile, Japan needs to not commit hari kari by attacking the US, and instead strike for the Southern Resource areas as OTL but bypassing the Philippines. Again, with resources freed up by not being at war in the central Pacific, and not occupying the Philippines, the Japanese should have an even easier time of conquering Southeast Asia.

Britain is now in what I think is an unsalvageable no-win situation:

- Suez and the Strait of Malacca are both in enemy hands: all supply to India and the Gulf has to go either around the Cape or around Australia
- German and Italian armies advancing toward Iraq and the Gulf, now with another overland supply route through Yugoslavia-Turkey-Syria
- Pro-Axis regimes in Iraq and Persia, which Britain is probably now uncomfortably occupying
- Japanese army advancing through Burma if not already in India proper
- India on the edge of open revolt if not already there
- The Soviets have every incentive to join in on the Axis side and take a slice of Persia and Afghanistan.

...Britain might pointlessly drag things out to the bitter end, or it might see the writing on the wall and settle early, but it certainly can't win once Southern Asia is totally isolated and being advanced upon from all sides.

So in the end:

- Germany, besides its thousand year reich, and domination of Western Europe, likely now has an EXTREMELY strategic petroleum empire in the Persian Gulf, and the perfect place to unload Europe's unloved Jews: Italian Palestine!
- Italy has an Eastern Mediterranean empire including Libya, Egypt, Palestine, and likely the whole of the Horn of Africa
- Japan has its own expanded empire in SE Asia complete with secure-ish resource supplies (the USA could trounce it still, but it's hardly likely to attack unprovoked)
- The Soviet Union have an extended and (crucially) secure Eastern border, and may have picked up territories to its south, all at practically no cost to itself
- France has its Empire back intact, albeit at the cost of its pride
- Britain (likely) still has its Dominion allies and its Sub-Saharan African empire, but it faces the scary prospect of a Europe dominated by one power, and has lost its most populous possessions (in South Asia), and its most profitable (in the Gulf)
- India has its independence, likely with a Fascist-type government

...sooooo... Is there any way for Britain to counter such an Axis strategy / prevent them from achieving (Old) World Domination?
 
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First problem with this is to get Hitler give up the cornerstone of his foreign policy which is to destroy USSR and secure lebensraum in the east. Apparently even adverse combination of events in OTL has not dissuaded him from attacking USSR, so I do not see him giving it up. Britain was never primary goal of Hitler. Maybe Ribbentrop. Investments into V weapons at this point are not that great if they exist at all. Only in 1943/44 Germany went all out to wonder weapons, as conventional ones were failing.

I do not think it is that easy to reorient entire German strategy towards Mediterranean as you suggest. Problem there is Italian low quality fleet as well as bad infrastructure in Lybia. Tripoli could handle at most 45000 tons and French allowed for 20000 tons to unload in Bizerta. Estimates show that to maintain the Axis forces in Africa at least 70000 tons was needed. The other bottleneck, worse than the capacity of ports was the ability to actually transport supplies from the dock to the front.

In this Axis was woefully inadequate. Only single road existed and as Axis advanced, the problem got worse. Unless Alexandria is captured, the ability to supply Axis force beyond border of Egypt is really questionable. You can make the case that if full attention is given to the Med, then enough trucks can be transferred to alleviate this, but the logistics would be so precarious and entire system would be in jeopardy with two or three lucky strikes by the Allies (say amphibious raids along the entire route or Long Range Desert Group raids). Without Battle of Britain, not only Germans, but British would be able to transfer more planes to Africa, so it will even out. And even if Axis somehow manages to close off Med, there is always round route.

Even if Germany can totally trust Russians, it would still need to maintain large army in the East and other occupied areas. Besides, Britain will start outproducing Germany very quickly by itself.

Entire plan for Far East hinges on USA not doing anything to counter Japan as it clearly emerges a master of Asia. I do not see it happening. Japanese didn't either, so they attacked US instead of allowing them to enter the war at the moment of their choice.
 
Frequenting alt-history forums for years, it seems to me nearly all Axis victory timelines violate at least one of these truisms, and are hence prima facie implausible:

- Stalemate with Britain isn't an option for Germany since it will eventually
bomb Germany to bits (conventionally at first; nuclear down the road)

I think this is possible IF they stay out of Russia, even if the USA comes in - strategic bombing didn't really start paying dividends until mid-late 1943 and into 1944, with the bulk of German fighting potential tied up in the East, and the bulk of German industrial potential tied up in weaponry for the East.

-
Stalemate isn't an option for Japan either, since the Royal Navy will eventually wipe out all its shipping

The RN alone? With no help for the USA? But it's a moot point, Roosevelt had committed the USA to war if the Japanese attack colonial possessions, and while we'd still have to vote on a war declaration, we'll be in the mix soon enough.

He doesn't get his lebensraum, but then that was never realistically possible.

Shaby already said, lebensraum is pretty much the cornerstone foreign policy of the Third Reich. You'd have to get a major change in Hitler's outlook to pull that off, and how viable is it anyway? Even if WW2 ends, Germany will be a pariah nation and quite likely at least partially cut off from world markets which they are still dependent on.

The entire point of Germany's war was autarchy, such as what the Soviets had and what the USA could easily achieve if they wanted to.

Now the hard part: to get the British to recognize Germany's triumph...


Germany's best and only strategy for convincing Britain to give up the war, IMHO, is an all-out North Africa / Middle Eastern / South Asian offensive in concert with Italy and Japan, aimed ultimately at threatening and if need be ending the British hold over India and the Persian Gulf.

*sings the UPS "Logistics! <3" song before explaining that the logistics of an all-out North African/Middle Eastern campaign don't really exist, and then the USA might go to war with you anyway*


Meanwhile, Japan needs to not commit hari kari by attacking the US, and instead strike for the Southern Resource areas as OTL but bypassing the Philippines. Again, with resources freed up by not being at war in the central Pacific, and not occupying the Philippines, the Japanese should have an even easier time of conquering Southeast Asia.

*Sings the Logistics song again because the Phillipines lies smack dab in the middle of Japanese supply routes to the Southern Resource areas, and the USA might DOW if you attack them anyway, so what's the point*

- Suez and the Strait of Malacca are both in enemy hands: all supply to India and the Gulf has to go either around the Cape or around Australia

I recall hearing somewhere that the Suez wasn't being used THAT much for supply.

Basically, your entire strategy needs to handwave the whole thing of the North African deserts being a logistical clusterfuck of the highest order, and the chance that Roosevelt will, somehow, someway, get the USA into the war to defend Europe's colonial possessions and prevent German domination of Europe.

Now, it's not ASB - with an all out operational effort in the Med the Axis *can* win, and at the very least the Germans stay the FUCK away from the USA, but the Japanese have to walk on eggshells to keep the USA out of the war, which ultimately poses the highest risk of dooming the strategy.
 
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*The year is 1943 in the Kremlin Stalin laughs in triumphant glee as the reformed & dramatically expanded Red Army smashes through the inferiorly equipped & outnumbered Axis forces*;)

Seriously Nazi Germany will implode within a decade & Fascism would bugger up the rest of Europe. So the un-war-ravaged Soviet Union is the big winner here.

Also I'm sure Britain & Germany would remain de-facto at war regardless of circumstances, even if things fizzle out to a Koran style ‘’Cold Peace’’. As any treaty with Hitler isnt worth the paper it's printed on.
 
So, IOTL the USA sat by and did mostly-nothing while Nazi Germany:

- Partitioned Eastern Europe
- Conquered all the democracies of Western Europe
- Invaded the Balkans
- Made a free-for-all of world and especially Atlantic shipping
- Bombed British cities
- Tore into the British empire in Africa and elsewhere
- Attacked the Soviet Union...

And while Japan:
- Conquered Korea
- Conquered Manchuria
- Fought an unending incredibly destructive war to conqueror all of China
- Conquered Vietnam

...but OF COURSE the Americans will declare war if the Dutch East Indies (which 95% of Americans couldn't find on a map) are occupied?!?? (not to mention the Netherlands is ALREADY under Axis occupation anyway!!!)

This just makes no sense. If FDR could have declared war without the USA being attacked he would have already; that he did't strongly suggests he couldn't.

So long as the Axis didn't invade any US territory, didn't set foot in the Western Hemisphere, and were careful to lay-off US shipping, I don't see how the US can join the war. Purely because of domestic constraints. Without a Pearl Harbour moment it just wasn't happening.

Re: logistics in North Africa, I assume an all-out Axis offensive means building a railway through the desert as they advance, which would greatly alleviate the need for trucks. The engineers will also be busy expanding North African ports and upgrading airfields on Malta and elsewhere, but again this is the entire focus of the German and Italian war efforts. Considering how close they came to Egypt IOTL with a fraction of the resources at their disposal, this really seems like a no-brainer slam-dunk. And while the British will have more naval and air assets in theatre (with Sealion off the table), their manpower might be even more constrained than IOTL because of the simultaneous war with the Japanese in Burma/India/New Guniea... which may actually get higher priority since it strikes more directly at British interests.
 
Shaby already said, lebensraum is pretty much the cornerstone foreign policy of the Third Reich. You'd have to get a major change in Hitler's outlook to pull that off, and how viable is it anyway? Even if WW2 ends, Germany will be a pariah nation and quite likely at least partially cut off from world markets which they are still dependent on.

The entire point of Germany's war was autarchy, such as what the Soviets had and what the USA could easily achieve if they wanted to.

If the war goes down as I propose, Germany is master of Europe, has oil resources of its own in the Persian Gulf, and a Soviet Union at least on trading terms. Plus very warm relations with its Axis co-conspirators. I'd hardly call that pariah status.

Germany can't be truly autarkic within Europe without disappearing a few hundred million slavs, which was never going to happen. It's second best option, as presented here, is to snatch the choice bits of the British Empire with the resources it actually needs, while getting the Italians to hold the otherwise-mostly-useless supply lines to-and-from (Suez, the Horn, Egypt)

Britain can sulk, but I don't see how they can overturn the new world order, at least without tempting the Soviets into a war with the Axis they have nothing to gain from, and everything to lose. The US will have missed their chance to do so.
 
So, IOTL the USA sat by and did mostly-nothing while Nazi Germany:

- Partitioned Eastern Europe
- Conquered all the democracies of Western Europe
- Invaded the Balkans
- Made a free-for-all of world and especially Atlantic shipping
- Bombed British cities
- Tore into the British empire in Africa and elsewhere
- Attacked the Soviet Union...

And while Japan:
- Conquered Korea
- Conquered Manchuria
- Fought an unending incredibly destructive war to conqueror all of China
- Conquered Vietnam

...but OF COURSE the Americans will declare war if the Dutch East Indies (which 95% of Americans couldn't find on a map) are occupied?!?? (not to mention the Netherlands is ALREADY under Axis occupation anyway!!!)

This just makes no sense. If FDR could have declared war without the USA being attacked he would have already; that he did't strongly suggests he couldn't.

So long as the Axis didn't invade any US territory, didn't set foot in the Western Hemisphere, and were careful to lay-off US shipping, I don't see how the US can join the war. Purely because of domestic constraints. Without a Pearl Harbour moment it just wasn't happening.

Re: logistics in North Africa, I assume an all-out Axis offensive means building a railway through the desert as they advance, which would greatly alleviate the need for trucks. The engineers will also be busy expanding North African ports and upgrading airfields on Malta and elsewhere, but again this is the entire focus of the German and Italian war efforts. Considering how close they came to Egypt IOTL with a fraction of the resources at their disposal, this really seems like a no-brainer slam-dunk. And while the British will have more naval and air assets in theatre (with Sealion off the table), their manpower might be even more constrained than IOTL because of the simultaneous war with the Japanese in Burma/India/New Guniea... which may actually get higher priority since it strikes more directly at British interests.

It always surprised me the heavy limitations FDR had been imposed on behalf of Congress before PH.

If we believe that FRD was a rabid anti-German, he would have liked nothing more than to declare total war in 1939 or at most 1940, after France was defeated.

But he was forced to wait until the end of 1941 to do so, and only because the Japanese served him a DOW on a golden plate!!

If the proposed scenario could be done, the US would have never entered WWII, and a rational Axis could have gained all it wanted from Britain and France.

Of course the US would still have developed nuclear weapons as the ultimate safety, but the British? Bad luck for them :D
 
Of course the US would still have developed nuclear weapons as the ultimate safety, but the British? Bad luck for them :D
Chances are Britain in this case via Tube Alloys will have nukes shortly after the USA, probably 1946 or 1947 (OTL they let the USA spend the equivalent of 26 Billion modern US Dollars on it)
 
This scenario would imply no Manhattan Project / Quebec Agreement, so the British/Canadians keep ploughing ahead with Tube Alloys. I'm not sure when Britain would get the bomb, but almost certainly too late to effect the outcome of this war, although certainly well ahead of the Germans or Japanese (the US or SU *might* beat Britain to it though).

That is, the Commonwealth, after giving up on India and the Gulf, will at least be secure under its own nuclear umbrella going into the late-40s. That should also be enough to hold the remnants together in a close defensive alliance.
 
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RousseauX

Donor
If the war goes down as I propose, Germany is master of Europe, has oil resources of its own in the Persian Gulf, and a Soviet Union at least on trading terms. Plus very warm relations with its Axis co-conspirators. I'd hardly call that pariah status.
Germany needs a lot more than oil

I recommend reading Wages of Destruction and rethinking your scenario: because it doesn't really make sense.
 
Germany needs a lot more than oil

I recommend reading Wages of Destruction and rethinking your scenario: because it doesn't really make sense.

My aim with this scenario is for Germany and the other Axis countries to pursue rationally obtainable war aims.

Germany was never going to be wholly self-sufficient in everything, hence the necessity of peace with the Soviets to keep that supply channel open. With neutral Finland and Pol-Lith between the German and Soviet empires, and Germany and Japan offering up British possessions in South Asia on a sliver platter to the Russians, where is the friction in the German-Soviet relationship that would prevent ongoing trade??

p.s. Persian Gulf oil is only a post-war bonus for Germany in this scenario. While fighting the British they would be utilising uninterrupted supplies from the Soviets and Romanians (unless the British go full-retard and attack the Soviet fields, which would simply hasten their defeat). Also post-war Italy will find itself in possession of very lucrative and conveniently-situated reserves in Libya.
 
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RousseauX

Donor
My aim with this scenario is for Germany and the other Axis countries to pursue rationally obtainable war aims.
The problem is that the rational aim would be to never start a war at all.

So under your scenario, Germany (let's forget about Japan for a moment, it's not plausible either but let's talk about the whole DEI thing later) has conquered western Europe. OK so now what?

Western Europe is still going to be extremely resource poor, ok, so the blockade thing goes away so maybe it might be economically viable. But it's still fundamentally too small and too resource dependent to compete economically with the Soviet Union and the United States: not to mention dependent on resources from them. So the German bloc will still be the weakest of the three.

At the same time you have to either occupy western europe ala Soviets (probably worse actually) in eastern Europe or risk the whatever regimes in starts to pursue independent policies. Presumbly you want to fight to keep the colonial empires (since you talked about them) so that just keep on piling on costs in money and troops.

At the same time Germany's eastern "allies" are going to play the Soviets and Germans against each other. And the "Jewish Bolsheviks" are going to be capable of putting Germany's economy to a sputtering half at any given time. This situation is completely unacceptable: you are better off not starting a war.
 
A messy but undisputed occupation of Western Europe and the Middle East is still much preferable to outright defeat as in OTL. It may also be preferable to stagnation and decline in a no-war scenario (Fascism seems to have an expand-or-die inherent dynamic)

I agree Germany still wouldn't be the equal of the Soviet Union, not to mention the USA. Japan less-so still. But they remain independent Great Powers, now with sizeable and lucrative (albeit expensive to occupy) colonial empires.

And, again, why would the Soviets ever restrict trade with the Axis in a post-Axis-victory scenario, given the Soviets benefit from the other side of that trade, and it would risk war with the Axis (which the Soviets may still ultimately win, but at a terrible cost). I suspect the Soviets would also under-estimate their real strength after the Axis has forced Britain out of the war.
 

RousseauX

Donor
A messy but undisputed occupation of Western Europe and the Middle East is still much preferable to outright defeat as in OTL.
Or simply not fight the war at all, since...what have you gained exactly?
And, again, why would the Soviets ever restrict trade with the Axis in a post-Axis-victory scenario, given the Soviets benefit from the other side of that trade, and it would risk war with the Axis (which the Soviets may still ultimately win, but at a terrible cost... I suspect the Soviets would also under-estimate their real strength after the Axis has defeated Britain)
Because it's a useful tool of economical warfare to wrangle out concessions from the Germans.

But any sort of scenario in which you are stuck with "let's hope the other people don't do anything bad for us" isn't really acceptable to the Germans.
 
But any sort of scenario in which you are stuck with "let's hope the other people don't do anything bad for us" isn't really acceptable to the Germans.

EVERY STATE IN HISTORY has had to deal with the reality of co-existence with other states which can damage its interests if they are so inclined. Fortunately, unless a state is *really* tempted or *really* stupid the mutual benefit of peaceful co-existence usually wins out.

Your logic seems to be: unless Germany can conquer and rule the whole world by fiat it shouldn't bother trying to grab what it can short of that???

BTW, this same nonsense-logic is always applied to the supposed Japanese "need" to go to war with the US and conquer the Philippines, because it's supply lines would be 'unacceptably' threatened otherwise. If that's the case, then HOW ON EARTH did Japan ever manage when it had to *BUY* oil from the East Indies and sail it past the Philippines AND British Malaysia, French Indochina, etc?!? ;)
 
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BTW, this same nonsense-logic is always applied to the supposed Japanese "need" to go to war with the US and conquer the Philippines, because it's supply lines would be 'unacceptably' threatened otherwise. If that's the case, then HOW ON EARTH did Japan ever manage when it had to *BUY* oil from the East Indies and sail it past the Philippines AND British Malaysia, French Indochina, etc?!? ;)

The Japanese felt they couldn't take the risk that US will intervene in an opportune moment. Left alone, the US had an ideal position to cut Japanese Empire in half. Had Japan been peaceful power, respectful of international law and not invaded China, the whole escalation likely would not take place. It was Japan that took course of confrontation, that dictated the moves and had initiative. I believe Allies were perfectly willing to co-opt Japan had she been willing to retreat from China.

Japan couldn't come to the decision to retreat very easy if at all. Concept of pride and loss of face dominated their world outlook. Even when political will was there, Army made sure that government didn't survive for long. On the other hand Allies failed to understand this and treated Japan the same they would any other country.

As for Italy improving the logistic capability in Libya as they advanced. Building railroad is no small feat even if you do it in the desert. You still need steel for the tracks, wood, locomotives, rolling stock. These cannot be produced locally. They need to be produced in Germany and transported on site, further taking away capacity from ports. Worst of all, these are all things Germany has shortage of in the situation where they have to produce tanks, guns, planes and myriad other war related items.

As long as Allies have naval supremacy in the Med, there is no way the supply route to Libya and between Tripoli and front where ever it is be secure. Afrika Korps had shortages of everything by the time they reached Mersa Matruh in 1942. That is after Tobruk fell. Even if Axis captures Alexandria, I think the port would be unusable. And it would take further logistic feats to bring it to back online.
 
Does Germany occupying all of France (rather than just the top half) help the Germans in any way, or does it hinder them?
 
Does Germany occupying all of France (rather than just the top half) help the Germans in any way, or does it hinder them?

German/Italian troops in France seem like a waste to me; the less the better.

All Germany needs France to do it defend itself / its empire / its fleet from the British, which is more likely the lighter the German presence on the ground IMHO.

To this end, the Axis war effort would also be served by convincing Mussolini not to occupy let alone annex Corsica and Nice. Offering him conquest in Africa and the Levant instead seems like a good way to do this.
 
Problems:

1) Arming Slavs and giving them independent is not the sort of thing the Nazis do, and they did have their reasons. They extensively exploited Polish labour, especially in the agricultural sector.

2) How does this guarantee no war? One party or the other can always just invade through little Poland, or a regime favouring one or the other might be established there: both possibilities will be high in the mind of the paranoid Stalin - and on the other hand Stalin was perfectly willing to play silly-buggers with the terms of M-R, so you can bet his agents will be at work in a Poland with no reason to feel sentiments of brotherly love towards Germany.

3) These anti-British strategies always depend on absurd levels of hindsight because they start by asking a military force which, contrary to its own expectations, has just conquered Europe and smashed all before them to for no terribly good reason just not attack their remaining enemy.

4) We were sending everything round the Cape anyway. Pre-war planning actually assumed that if Italy cam in, we'd just chuck the Med.

5) Why are Indians ready to leap up and establish freedom for themselves under... um, fascism, right... at the drop of a pin?

6) Why the hell is Stalin, who was staking his game on continued Anglo-German struggle, going to assist the side who are already winning? That's not what he did IOTL.
 
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