WI: SLCM/SLBM Systems Fielded in World War II

[Delta Force]

The "Platforms for work" sort of suggest that turning an extremely complex mechanism from the horizontal (after a 3000 mile sea voyage across the North Atlantic at wave/periscope depth) was not envisaged as yielding a ready-to-use weapon at the end of the trip...

The V-2 was horizontally transported on a trailer before being erected, fueled, and fired. The process for a land based launch was expected to take 110 minutes from arrival to departure. A submarine launch would require the launch crew to go back and forth between the submarine and the missile pod, but potentially it might be able to do both fueling phases at the same time and the submarine will probably leave the rocket behind, cutting time from the process. Time would have to be allocated for various tasks unique to a submarine setup though. Here's, the land process:

1. Arrival at launch site and dismount rocket; duration 20 minutes from X minus 110 to minus 90 minutes.
2. Fueling of B-Stoff and T-Stoff; duration 20 minutes at X minus 55 minutes.
3. Fueling of A-Stoff and Z-Stoff; duration 10 minutes at X minus 30 minutes.
4. Finalize rocket position, couple Meillerwagen to tractor, depart site; duration 5 minutes at X minus 13 minutes.

This thing makes the Russian "modified diesel-electric boats that have to surface to fire nuclear-tipped guided missiles from tubes that are so large they need an expanded conning tower to keep them within the hull volume of the submarine" designs look elegant...and tactically, the time required to make this happen just sort of suggests suicide mission.

Of course, the Axis could avoid the more heavily defended coastlines of Canada and the United States and attack Brazil, Mexico, and other nations in a state of war with the Axis. That could lead to resources being allocated away from other fronts to defend the coastline of South America.

 

[TFSmith121]

Liquid fuelled missiles being readied for launch in a liquid medium...

The V-2 was horizontally transported on a trailer before being erected, fueled, and fired. The process for a land based launch was expected to take 110 minutes from arrival to departure. A submarine launch would require the launch crew to go back and forth between the submarine and the missile pod, but potentially it might be able to do both fueling phases at the same time and the submarine will probably leave the rocket behind, cutting time from the process. Time would have to be allocated for various tasks unique to a submarine setup though. Here's, the land process:

1. Arrival at launch site and dismount rocket; duration 20 minutes from X minus 110 to minus 90 minutes.
2. Fueling of B-Stoff and T-Stoff; duration 20 minutes at X minus 55 minutes.
3. Fueling of A-Stoff and Z-Stoff; duration 10 minutes at X minus 30 minutes.
4. Finalize rocket position, couple Meillerwagen to tractor, depart site; duration 5 minutes at X minus 13 minutes.

Of course, the Axis could avoid the more heavily defended coastlines of Canada and the United States and attack Brazil, Mexico, and other nations in a state of war with the Axis. That could lead to resources being allocated away from other fronts to defend the coastline of South America.

Liquid fuelled missiles being readied for launch in a liquid medium...I imagine the wave action and fluid dynamics combination will be, interesting...

Pretty hard to get within V1 or V2 range of Mexico without crossing the AORs of the Caribbean Defense Command, Eastern Sea Frontier, Gulf Sea Frontier, Caribbean Sea Frontier, Panama Sea Frontier, Trinidad Base Sector, 6th Air Force, 1st Air Force, 2nd Air Force, or various and sundry - cripes, even the Cubans sank a u-boat in 1943, using (just as an aside) the smallest craft ever credited with such a victory, an 83 foot patrol boat (CS 13, L-L from the US) with an assist from a USN 0S2U.

Mexico had a decent ASW coastal force by 1944-45, as well, while Brazil's coastal ASW forces (air and naval) were pretty capable and experienced by the same time frame and had operated alongside the USN's 4th Fleet in the South Atlantic since 1942; Brazil had full or partial credit for several u-boats as well.

The Axis were overmatched essentially everywhere by 1944-45; there's a reason they lost, and no desparate gambits with untried technology was going to change that...

Best,

 

[eltf177]

Liquid fuelled missiles being readied for launch in a liquid medium...I imagine the wave action and fluid dynamics combination will be, interesting...

Couldn't have said it better myself...

The Axis were overmatched essentially everywhere by 1944-45; there's a reason they lost, and no desparate gambits with untried technology was going to change that...

Dead on target! Just maybe put off the inevitable for a short while longer at best.

 

[Delta Force]

What if the conventional warheads had been replaced with biological or chemical warheads? Germany pioneered the G series nerve agents, including tabun, sarin, and soman. Since SLCM and SLBM attacks would be most likely in a long war scenario (with chemical attacks as a possible response to atomic attacks), cyclosarin might have been an option as well.

 

[TFSmith121]

They still need to be delivered, through seas that are

What if the conventional warheads had been replaced with biological or chemical warheads? Germany pioneered the G series nerve agents, including tabun, sarin, and soman. Since SLCM and SLBM attacks would be most likely in a long war scenario (with chemical attacks as a possible response to atomic attacks), cyclosarin might have been an option as well.

They still need to be delivered, through seas that are still dominated by the Allies; and on the off chance they actually hit something with a chem/bio warhead, Berlin ceases to exist.

Then - I presume - Munich?

The rubble continues to jump on a monthly basis...

Best,

 

[Delta Force]

They still need to be delivered, through seas that are still dominated by the Allies; and on the off chance they actually hit something with a chem/bio warhead, Berlin ceases to exist.

Then - I presume - Munich?

The rubble continues to jump on a monthly basis...

Best,

True, but from in terms of atomic weapons, a deterrent only deters when it isn't being used.

 

[TFSmith121]

But in 1945, at least based on the historical precedent, it

True, but from in terms of atomic weapons, a deterrent only deters when it isn't being used.

But in 1945, at least based on the historical precedent, it would be enough to end the threat permanently.

Best,

 

[phx1138]

One of the major problems with the V-1 was targeting: the guidance system depended on dead reckoning (flying for a pre-set time in a given direction) and it was critically important to know the exact location of the target in relation to the launch site.

That's true if you intend to use it as a land-attack weapon. I've often imagined use as a BVR weapon against convoys, range in the vicinity of 25mi. Convoys are pretty big targets, moving relatively slow compared to a flying bomb...

There is, of course, the option of radar homing: fit them with a variety of Naxos that can track DD radars.

As for drawbacks, there was a thread on the subject which pretty well detailed them.

For fun I once played with the idea of German sub-launched anti-ship missiles (using the very primitive IR- or radar-seeking capability just then being discovered) as a way to resuscitate the convoy war.

Utterly ASB, obviously. But I didn't know better back then.

I continue to wonder if it's as ASB as some think, given narrower parameters. IMO, it beats trying to develop the Walther turbine boats.

Too many people seem to want (or expect) Tomahawks & Polaris, both of which are ASB. (So, too, any sub-launched V-2, IMO.) Is *Regulus for use against convoys also ASB? No, not IMO. Not every convoy had a/c on top the whole way. (AFAIK, none did.) So...

 

[Delta Force]

Convoys are pretty big targets, moving relatively slow compared to a flying bomb...

Not really. A convoy is mostly empty space, and the V-1 would simply be randomly fired at it.

There is, of course, the option of radar homing: fit them with a variety of Naxos that can track DD radars.

It would have to be passively guided, since the submarine isn't going to guide it and the V-1 would have to carry its own radar, power generation, and targeting/tracking computer systems to perform active guidance. It could try to home in on the radar signals of escort ships as an early anti-radiation missile, but I don't know how many escort ships would have had radar.

 

[phx1138]

Not really. A convoy is mostly empty space, and the V-1 would simply be randomly fired at it.

Torpedoes scored from extreme range, & you don't just fire blind in the general direction. Yes, fair chance of missing; also fair chance of hitting something.

It would have to be passively guided,

how many escort ships would have had radar.

Enough to matter. My preference, actually, is (passive) IR homing, but IDK if that's advanced enough.

 

[TFSmith121]

One issue: by the time the V-1s come along,

That's true if you intend to use it as a land-attack weapon. I've often imagined use as a BVR weapon against convoys, range in the vicinity of 25mi. Convoys are pretty big targets, moving relatively slow compared to a flying bomb...

There is, of course, the option of radar homing: fit them with a variety of Naxos that can track DD radars.

As for drawbacks, there was a thread on the subject which pretty well detailed them.

I continue to wonder if it's as ASB as some think, given narrower parameters. IMO, it beats trying to develop the Walther turbine boats.

Too many people seem to want (or expect) Tomahawks & Polaris, both of which are ASB. (So, too, any sub-launched V-2, IMO.) Is *Regulus for use against convoys also ASB? No, not IMO. Not every convoy had a/c on top the whole way. (AFAIK, none did.) So...

One issue: by the time the V-1s come along, a surfaced attack by a submarine firing a first generation SSM at any Allied target said surfaced submarine can find is going to be pretty close to a suicide mission before the V-1 is launched; afterward, the Germans may as well abandon ship...nothing quite like the launch of a liquid fuelled missile to say "hey! I'm over here!"...

Regulus was designed as a strategic weapon; at that point, the entire strategy for use of nuclear weapons "was" suicidal.

Best,

 

[TFSmith121]

By the time the V-1 was operational?

It could try to home in on the radar signals of escort ships as an early anti-radiation missile, but I don't know how many escort ships would have had radar.

By the time the V-1 was operational?

All of them.

Best,

 

[phx1138]

...nothing quite like the launch of a liquid fuelled missile to say "hey! I'm over here!"...

Liquid-fuelled missile?

And even after spotting a launch (presuming the escort has), you've got to find the launching sub (& it's a big ocean). The Allies don't have air on top of every convoy all the time...

 

[TFSmith121]

Well, yeah; the V-1 was liquid fuelled (gasoline, I think)

Liquid-fuelled missile?

And even after spotting a launch (presuming the escort has), you've got to find the launching sub (& it's a big ocean). The Allies don't have air on top of every convoy all the time...

Well, yeah; the V-1 was liquid fuelled (gasoline, I think) and it would have to be launched at visual range; I don't see any BVR capability, both in the sense of the moving target of a convoy and the fact the launching submarine will not have any useful intelligence on the target location and course without a visual range sighting (optical or radar, both make the escorts job easier by 1944-45).

Likewise, having a pulse jet putt putting across the North Atlantic sky basiclaly draws a line back to the launch submarine.

Best,

 

[phx1138]

Well, yeah; the V-1 was liquid fuelled (gasoline, I think)

Okay, I'm thinking lox & something...

and it would have to be launched at visual range; I don't see any BVR capability, both in the sense of the moving target of a convoy and the fact the launching submarine will not have any useful intelligence on the target location and course without a visual range sighting

Escorts won't necessarily be able to see the launching sub, tho, so BVR in that sense: put a periscope up from a surfaced boat, you've got a 40' masthead height above the deck (which is, what, 65' total?), more than the DD; plus, you don't need to spot ships, just know there's a convoy (& the trailer boats give you that much).

Likewise, having a pulse jet putt putting across the North Atlantic sky basiclaly draws a line back to the launch submarine.

True. Escorts will then have to track back along that line at 30-40 knots, against a V-1 doing over 300: so (*doing the math*) the U-boat gives the escorts less than 3min warning (at 15mi) & gets back about 30min. Being 30min away from the firing point, the U-boat is effectively undetectable...

I'd take those odds.

 

[TFSmith121]

The sub would have to surface to launch;

Okay, I'm thinking lox & something...

Escorts won't necessarily be able to see the launching sub, tho, so BVR in that sense: put a periscope up from a surfaced boat, you've got a 40' masthead height above the deck (which is, what, 65' total?), more than the DD; plus, you don't need to spot ships, just know there's a convoy (& the trailer boats give you that much).

True. Escorts will then have to track back along that line at 30-40 knots, against a V-1 doing over 300: so (*doing the math*) the U-boat gives the escorts less than 3min warning (at 15mi) & gets back about 30min. Being 30min away from the firing point, the U-boat is effectively undetectable...

I'd take those odds.

The sub would have to surface to launch; and that is not a quick procedure, especially unbuttoning whatever passes for the watertight hangar...

See USS Carbonero launching a Loon in 1949:

And visibility is actually much better from a surface ship than periscope depth...basically, if you're close enough to spot a target, surface, prep the V-1, and launch it, then...

The escorts are close enough to spot the submarine on radar or visually, and any aircraft in the area - whether carrier-based or land-based - is going to see nothing but a target.

The end result would look like this, I think:


A surfaced German submarine in 1944-45 is really going to be hard-pressed to manage the launch of something like a V-1 and survive.

Best,

 

[Workable Goblin]

Liquid fuelled missiles being readied for launch in a liquid medium...I imagine the wave action and fluid dynamics combination will be, interesting...

You could ask the Soviets. Many of their Cold War ICBMs were liquid-fueled, for the simple reason that they had relatively little skill or ability in building large solid-fueled rockets.

 

[TFSmith121]

True; and even their earliest boats with ICBMs had to

You could ask the Soviets. Many of their Cold War ICBMs were liquid-fueled, for the simple reason that they had relatively little skill or ability in building large solid-fueled rockets.

True; and even their earliest boats with ICBMs had to surface to launch.

Back in the day, I had some experience with ASW. Anytime after about 1943, surfaced operations by submarines were really going to be an e-ticket.

There's a reason every naval power went in for snorkel DE boats and then nuclear power; in an era of long-range aircraft and radar, surfaced operations by submarines was bad news...

Best,