WI: Slavic "Romania", Romanian "Yugoslavia"

Hello! This is my first post and english is not my native language, but i hope you like it.
Basically, i was looking to the balkan's map when i through "why are the southern slavs separated from the other slavic groups? And why Romania is isolated from the romance nations?". So, what if the east romance-speaking populations had gone to the OTL Yugoslavia, meanwhile slavic tribes had established in Dacia (as well as Bulgaria)? How would the romanian language evolve as part of the latin continuum? And the slavic Dacia?
 
Perhaps if the Ostro-Gothic Italian kingdom had persisted the Romance languages of Dalmatia would be stronger?
Well, i was thinking more about a mass migration of east romance-speakers to the area (perhaps during the RE fall?), but this looks interesting too. Still, what about the slavic Dacia?
 
No Bulgarians? Romanians and Aromanians emerge as the majority group in Moesia and Modern southern Serbia and FYROMacedonia
 
Reminds me of this map:
romania_and_yugoslavia_swap__by_lorec10-dbjtrcr.jpg
 
Well to a very limited extent, Slavic Tunisia is a no-no for example.

What about a Finno-Ugric Portugal;)

I think that it would mean that this Romance-speaking Yugoslavia very likely winds up a variation of Catholic (like Croatia perhaps), perhaps in closer ties with a Western/Holy Roman Empire than with Constantinople. Balkan history isn't my forte, but I'm guessing that OTL Serbia's combined Slavic language plus it's Orthodoxy made it sort of a bulwark against imperial ambitions. Bohemia was Slavic and Catholic and got absorbed, Poland though, was likewise Slavic and Catholic but wasn't (although there were several occasions where the imperial house ATTEMPTED to claim the Polish throne through conquest or marriage).

BTW @John I of Brazil: welcome to the board
 
Reminds me of this map:
romania_and_yugoslavia_swap__by_lorec10-dbjtrcr.jpg
Yes. I was thinking about somethink like this.

What about a Finno-Ugric Portugal;)

I think that it would mean that this Romance-speaking Yugoslavia very likely winds up a variation of Catholic (like Croatia perhaps), perhaps in closer ties with a Western/Holy Roman Empire than with Constantinople. Balkan history isn't my forte, but I'm guessing that OTL Serbia's combined Slavic language plus it's Orthodoxy made it sort of a bulwark against imperial ambitions. Bohemia was Slavic and Catholic and got absorbed, Poland though, was likewise Slavic and Catholic but wasn't (although there were several occasions where the imperial house ATTEMPTED to claim the Polish throne through conquest or marriage).

BTW @John I of Brazil: welcome to the board

Interesting. Thank you!

Edit: I can imagine the italians trying to include the Yugo-Romanian region in their claims of unification, but it would probably fail miserably.
 
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Well, would Romanian necessarily be a monolithic bloc, here? I know very little on the formation of modern Romania, but the general singular language (split between three regions) could possibly be attributed to the isolation of the Romanians from the remainder of the Romance language groups.

In contrast, this Romania (which I will simply refer to as Illyria, for clarity's sake), would be part of the Romance continuum from Portugal all the way to Macedonia. The Dalmation city states could potentially be stronger, with easier ties to the hinterland, but could be subsumed by the Italians like OTL as well. Still, Dalmatian as a subgroup would survive. However, an Istrian group might appear as well, serving as a bridge between Italian (mostly Venetian) and purer Illyrian, which remains located mainly within the hinterland east of the Dinaric Alps.

if we're counting Macedonia as well, one thing for it might be it becoming the last remnant of any Latin Kingdom/Crusader state (assuming Islam even arises with a Migration era PoD is sketchy enough, but for ease of argument...). It would certainly become a region that would have a heavy greek influence, if it simply does not become Greek in its entirety.

Would Albania be subsumed, in part, to the Illyric picture, or would they simply take a good deal of loan words and from Illyrian/Italian languages, but not quite converting entirely to this new Illyrian.

Edit: I can imagine the italians trying to include the Yugo-Romanian region in their claims of unification, but it would probably fail miserably.

I'm not so sure they would be so unsuccessful; as it was, they had relatively large claims from the not-insignificant number of Italian speakrs OTL - even if the last Dalmatian speaker died out in the 1860s (I think), there was still an Italian (Venetian esp) strain present. And, as the entire Adriatic remains Romance, the illyrian spectrum will remain very close to Italian - though, Italian itself could very well be different (Venetian or Istrian may be the better suited for a middle-ground language for both peninsular Italians and Illyrians.

So, Istria (including a good chunk of what is Slovenia) and Greater Dalmatia could easily become part of Italy in this scenario - especially as Italy is a flexible concept to begin with, assuming all things equal. Everything west of the Danube, down through Bosnia and Montenegro would not be hard to be integrated. It's once you get into the South Illyrian/Serbian highlands, and especially into Macedonia, that you might find difficulty due to sheer distance. Though, if This alternate Italy also integrates Albania, then there's a reasonable chance they could bring Macedonia in (Janina too, but that's a different discussion).

You, of course, could have Illyrian develop into a political entity, or have it be dominated by Hungary similar to the Balkans in OTL as well. You've got over 1.5 millenia to play with, so virtually any of the above could happen.
 
Well, would Romanian necessarily be a monolithic bloc, here? I know very little on the formation of modern Romania, but the general singular language (split between three regions) could possibly be attributed to the isolation of the Romanians from the remainder of the Romance language groups.

In contrast, this Romania (which I will simply refer to as Illyria, for clarity's sake), would be part of the Romance continuum from Portugal all the way to Macedonia. The Dalmation city states could potentially be stronger, with easier ties to the hinterland, but could be subsumed by the Italians like OTL as well. Still, Dalmatian as a subgroup would survive. However, an Istrian group might appear as well, serving as a bridge between Italian (mostly Venetian) and purer Illyrian, which remains located mainly within the hinterland east of the Dinaric Alps.

if we're counting Macedonia as well, one thing for it might be it becoming the last remnant of any Latin Kingdom/Crusader state (assuming Islam even arises with a Migration era PoD is sketchy enough, but for ease of argument...). It would certainly become a region that would have a heavy greek influence, if it simply does not become Greek in its entirety.

Would Albania be subsumed, in part, to the Illyric picture, or would they simply take a good deal of loan words and from Illyrian/Italian languages, but not quite converting entirely to this new Illyrian.



I'm not so sure they would be so unsuccessful; as it was, they had relatively large claims from the not-insignificant number of Italian speakrs OTL - even if the last Dalmatian speaker died out in the 1860s (I think), there was still an Italian (Venetian esp) strain present. And, as the entire Adriatic remains Romance, the illyrian spectrum will remain very close to Italian - though, Italian itself could very well be different (Venetian or Istrian may be the better suited for a middle-ground language for both peninsular Italians and Illyrians.

So, Istria (including a good chunk of what is Slovenia) and Greater Dalmatia could easily become part of Italy in this scenario - especially as Italy is a flexible concept to begin with, assuming all things equal. Everything west of the Danube, down through Bosnia and Montenegro would not be hard to be integrated. It's once you get into the South Illyrian/Serbian highlands, and especially into Macedonia, that you might find difficulty due to sheer distance. Though, if This alternate Italy also integrates Albania, then there's a reasonable chance they could bring Macedonia in (Janina too, but that's a different discussion).

You, of course, could have Illyrian develop into a political entity, or have it be dominated by Hungary similar to the Balkans in OTL as well. You've got over 1.5 millenia to play with, so virtually any of the above could happen.

Thanks for the commentary! Yes, "Illyrian" would be very influenced by italian, specially in Dalmatia, OTL Croatia and Slovenia, but the "serbian" regions would be more isolated (more like otl romania). So probably by the rise of nationalism the region could become divided between a italophone nnortwest and a independentist southeast.
 
Thanks for the commentary! Yes, "Illyrian" would be very influenced by italian, specially in Dalmatia, OTL Croatia and Slovenia, but the "serbian" regions would be more isolated (more like otl romania). So probably by the rise of nationalism the region could become divided between a italophone nnortwest and a independentist southeast.

All other things being equal, of course. I mean, this is before the rise of Islam, so that may never occur, and the Romans could still push west and the Holy Roman Emperor establishes a Carinthian March, spreading Greek and German influences and perhaps succeeding in altering demographics further. Or, perhaps, a more intact Illyria that isn't subdivided and conquered and still remains strong could instead become the nucleus for later Italian expansion, leading to parts of Italy ruled from Illyria instead of vice versa.

Heck, I was imagining a Latin Empire (which is so far beyond the PoD as to be using pesticide on a field of butterflies) being able to maintain a land connection from Constantinople to Rome after a resurgence in the Western Empire (or its replacement), while the Eastern Roman Empire has relocated to Anatolia and Syria as its power base, with feuding over Greece proper ongoingas petty kingdoms fight over scraps of land while being propped up by both sides.

In short, that's why "all other things being equal" is the greatest caveat to include here.
 
The theory about Romanian origin that I find most plausible is that they all descend from the Aromanians, ie. Latin-speaking nomad sheepherders that wandared throughout the Balkans, from Greece to Slovenia. Some of them just settled amongst Slavs and Bulgars in OTL Romania and eventually became the most prominent culture there. Therefore, yes, it's possible that Romanians decide to settle somewhere else in the Balkans depending on the local conditions.
 
Thank you for you comments, guys!
Also, no one has talked about the other side of the discussion: and the Slavic Dacia? Could Russia have a stronger influence in the balkans with this? And what would the language look like?
 

Vuu

Banned
Makes more sense than OTL - being closer to Italy and all. One problem is the Morava valley - the only high-capacity thoroughfare between Greece and Pannonnia, along with the Nišava valley, for Constantinopol. It's a literal "funnel" for people, so I guess that the only Latin peoples would remain confined to the coast - and yet there are problems with Slavs and the Balkans in general, but I'm not going to say anything further on the subject until certain sociopolitical conditions are set
 
Well the Latinate would develop into separate dialects:
  1. Istrian
  2. Dalmatian (the Adriatic coast until Boka Kotorska, Hercegovina , Lika and Montenegro)
  3. Bosnian (would include the Bosniak inhabited territory and Drina valley plus sanjak.) Similar to Morlach
  4. Savian, actually a dialect of Pannonian- west Republic of Srpska pkus Slavonia.
  5. Moesian: spoken in Serbia, very similar to OTL Romanian
  6. Macedonian, spoken in Vardar valley, moreless identitical to Aromanian.
  7. Coastal Albania may develop a Romance language as Well
 
I think that it would mean that this Romance-speaking Yugoslavia very likely winds up a variation of Catholic (like Croatia perhaps), perhaps in closer ties with a Western/Holy Roman Empire than with Constantinople. Balkan history isn't my forte, but I'm guessing that OTL Serbia's combined Slavic language plus it's Orthodoxy made it sort of a bulwark against imperial ambitions. Bohemia was Slavic and Catholic and got absorbed, Poland though, was likewise Slavic and Catholic but wasn't (although there were several occasions where the imperial house ATTEMPTED to claim the Polish throne through conquest or marriage).

Depends. As a fresh reminder, Balkan Romance IOTL consists of four basic major subdivisions:
>Daco-Romanian: the largest subdivision in terms of speakers, and is the language variety most often considered "the Romanian language";
>Aromanian: the next-largest, relatively speaking, marked by a heavy Greek influence;
>Megleno-Romanian: also spoken in Greece, as well as in Northern Macedonia/FYROM, marked by a few differences including a retention of long vowels;
>Istro-Romanian: isolated from the rest of Balkan Romance and is marked by its relative archaism

Now, if Balkan Romance was located instead on the location of OTL Yugoslavia, as I would see it the western ends (right around the area where Slovene and the Chakavian and Kajkavian varieties are spoken IOTL, both historically and in modern times) would see an expansion of Istro-Romanian as the main spoken variety of the area, in co-existence with and in "competition" with Dalmatian, and Megleno-Romanian spoken in the area of OTL Kosovo, FYROM, and southern Serbia as well as its OTL spoken areas in both FYROM and Greece. Megleno-Romanian ITTL could also have stronger Greek influence than IOTL (particularly in terms of the dental and velar fricatives, which most of Balkan Romance lacks), comparable with Aromanian (even if Aromanian develops as a separate variety). Which leaves *Daco-Romanian as the main variety spoken akin to Shtokavian IOTL (and in which case the Moldavian dialect ITTL could have the same function that Istro-Romanian had IOTL - making the proponents IOTL of the Moldovan language seem like they were right) and primarily written in Greek or Cyrillic script (at least at first, thanks to influence from the Orthodox Church).

In other words, linguistics-wise, things get A LOT more complicated than IOTL.
 
Rather than simply in OTL Romania, might the South Slavs be present in what in our timeline is Ukraine, perhaps mixing with east Slavic dialects? This would lead to a clearer cultural separation from other eastern Slavs, which might lead to longer periods of being a separate nation.
 
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