WI: Slavic Pagan Russia?

yoyo

Banned
OTL Vladimir the great of Kiev attempted to consolidate the Slavic pagan traditions into a standardized organization but however this project was abandoned and he instead chose the christian way. But what if he had continued along with his project?
Yes, there was opposition against the consolidation, but similar opposition existed for the christianization attempts, and perhaps with a succession of several more supportive Princes could have made the Pagan project succeed.
How would a slavic pagan russian state survive?
 
It wouldn't. The eastern pagan states were all conquered, sometimes by a Crusade. The only states that survived were the ones that converted in time.

But not all the Eastern Pagan states were conquered. Lithuania was quite successful in maintaining its its pagan faith while being surrounded by Christian foes. Although they did eventually convert, of course, they did not do so at the point of a sword.

Honestly, the bigger driving forces at play in Russia's conversion, I would think, would be economic and political: Christianity brought with it closer economic and cultural connections with the Eastern Empire, and Christianity also elevated the Kingship and allowed for further consolidation.

That isn't to say that someone, centuries later, might not try to launch a crusade against a pagan Russian state. But Russia's distance from the power power centers of Europe might make that difficult.

So, no, I don't believe a pagan Russia surviving to the modern day is likely, but it's certainly not impossible either. Though I think it would develope into a very different place than in OTL.
 
It'd be very interesting. Pagan Rus' would be very much set apart from the rest of Europe. Not that that's really too different from otl, but over time the Rus' kingdom, which may well elevate itself to empire anyway, will remain a strange, exotic, deeply foreign land to Western Europeans. It may have a friendlier relationship with Lithuania, whose pagan rulers would feel under less pressure to convert and thus probably won't (the conversion of Lithuania otl was a pretty unique situation driven by the immense dynastic opportunity presented by Hedwiga of Poland). It would definitely have a huge impact on art and literature, as the mythology of Slavic paganism would be preserved and the great mythic stories would be written down and inspire further works. There'd also be a whole artistic tradition around the building of temples and creation of images of gods.
I think the likelihood of a crusade against the Rus' is unlikely, for the simple reason that Rus' is huge, populous, and lacking in either valuable resources or theological justification, meaning it'd be far too hard for too little gain. If the Slavic pagan religion is consolidated under Vladimir, and has rime to stabilise and become part of people's identity, any crusade would only serve to strengthen that identity, much as the crusades in the near east strengthened Muslim identity in opposition to the Crusaders.
If there's a good, strong theological justification for the Rurikid dynasty's rule, similar to the Chinese concept of the Mandate of Heaven or the Japanese concept of the Emperor's divine descent, it could help stabilise the Rus', especially as any high priesthoods would be most definitely subservient to the Velikiy Knyaz/Tsar, unlike Patriarchs who could sometimes challenge him.
 
Would Vladimir still agree to intervene against Byzantine rebels in 987 if he were still pagan?

He was still a pagan then, no? Don't most scholars date his baptism to 988?

My understanding is that Constantinople gave the pre-Christian Rus' much leeway in part because they hoped to eventually convert the country to Christianity. Perhaps that status quo could be maintained for a few more decades until the Turks start to make serious advances in Anatolia, and then the Russians, seeing that there are now significant Christian and Muslim powers in the neighborhood, decide to hang on to their reformed, organized paganism as a way of playing the two forces against each other in much the same way that the Khazars did when they converted to Judaism. Eventually the faith becomes so thoroughly enmeshed in the culture of the Kievan' Rus and any direct successor states that, even if they get to a point where it may be advantageous to adopt some other religion, it may be politically impossible to do so without seriously alienating the nobles and peasantry.

I wonder what a reformed Russian paganism would look like, though. After skimming a few Wikipedia articles...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_the_Great#Years_of_pagan_rule

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianization_of_Kievan_Rus'#Background

...it seems that there may have been a conscious effort to syncretize the faith with Norse, Iranian, and Finno-Ugric elements, but that Perun was essentially the primary deity. Given that Abrahamic influences will still be strong in the area, I wonder if things would get to the point where the religion becomes de facto or even de jure monotheistic in the worship of Perun, and perhaps adherents will even attempt to identify him with the Abrahamic God.

On the other hand, what would relations with the Slavic and Baltic pagans look like? Many Slavic, Baltic, and Finno-Ugric peoples held onto paganism for centuries after this point, thus leading to the Northern Crusades, and even nominally Christian Poland had a strong pagan element.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagan_reaction_in_Poland

Might Kiev try to cast itself as something of a protector of these peoples, perhaps in an attempt to promote their brand of paganism among them as well? If nothing else, the lack of a strong Christian power to their east might take away some of the pressure that the Lithuanians and others felt to adopt some form of Christianity.
 
But not all the Eastern Pagan states were conquered. Lithuania was quite successful in maintaining its its pagan faith while being surrounded by Christian foes. Although they did eventually convert, of course, they did not do so at the point of a sword.

Honestly, the bigger driving forces at play in Russia's conversion, I would think, would be economic and political: Christianity brought with it closer economic and cultural connections with the Eastern Empire, and Christianity also elevated the Kingship and allowed for further consolidation.

That isn't to say that someone, centuries later, might not try to launch a crusade against a pagan Russian state. But Russia's distance from the power power centers of Europe might make that difficult.

So, no, I don't believe a pagan Russia surviving to the modern day is likely, but it's certainly not impossible either. Though I think it would develope into a very different place than in OTL.

Good point! Benefits from changing religion was probably a more important factor than fear of crusades. Let us assume that the Rus at least stayed Pagan longer. Might they have formed a strategic alliance with the Lithuanians in the case of resisting Christian crusades?
 
Good point! Benefits from changing religion was probably a more important factor than fear of crusades. Let us assume that the Rus at least stayed Pagan longer. Might they have formed a strategic alliance with the Lithuanians in the case of resisting Christian crusades?

Well yes, but actually no. If the Mongol invasion is not butterflied away then the Rus are still screwed. Which means Lithuania is also in deep doo doo.
 
Pagan Rus' would not be conquered by crusaders, at least not whole and not during Medieval era. Pagan Lithuania, which is way smaller, was not conquered by crusaders. Only Christian nations near pagan Rus' would be Hungary and Poland, and these would not be able to conquer Rus' in Medieval times. Steppe nomads, like IOTL, are more likely conquerors of Rus'.
 
Well yes, but actually no. If the Mongol invasion is not butterflied away then the Rus are still screwed. Which means Lithuania is also in deep doo doo.

Still, such an alliance could keep missionaries at a distance for centuries. Also, the Mongols would not spread Christianity, athough they would help weaken the Russians, which might help crusaders at a later stage.
 
Still, such an alliance could keep missionaries at a distance for centuries. Also, the Mongols would not spread Christianity, athough they would help weaken the Russians, which might help crusaders at a later stage.

Yes, but weren't crusades a pretty spent force by the time the Mongols collapsed in OTL?

And even if they're not - this isn't Crusader Kings; and the Crusades were not some unstoppable wave. Really, if anyone is going to conquer a stubbornly Pagan Rus state and force them to convert, its going to be their nearest neighbors which, during this era would be: Sweden, Denmark, the Teutonic Order (possibly, if it isn't butterflied away), Poland and Lithuania.

Lithuania might still be pagan in this scenario as well, so let's leave them out as well. This leaves Sweden, Denmark and Poland (sans Lithuania) as the most likely regional Christian powers. Although there are going to be butterflies gallore, so it's impossible to say for certain, would any of these powers have the ability to project power deep enough into the Russian heartland in order to secure the conversion of an obstinate Russian state? Maybe. But I'm not sure I'd like their odds if i were them.

On an interesting sidenote, assuming a Mongol Conquest or a close analogy, what are the chances they would convert to the Russian pagan faith as the local prestige religion? (Because, in this case, you might see the northern Mongols evolve into a unified Russian state over time).
 
Yes, but weren't crusades a pretty spent force by the time the Mongols collapsed in OTL?

And even if they're not - this isn't Crusader Kings; and the Crusades were not some unstoppable wave. Really, if anyone is going to conquer a stubbornly Pagan Rus state and force them to convert, its going to be their nearest neighbors which, during this era would be: Sweden, Denmark, the Teutonic Order (possibly, if it isn't butterflied away), Poland and Lithuania.

Lithuania might still be pagan in this scenario as well, so let's leave them out as well. This leaves Sweden, Denmark and Poland (sans Lithuania) as the most likely regional Christian powers. Although there are going to be butterflies gallore, so it's impossible to say for certain, would any of these powers have the ability to project power deep enough into the Russian heartland in order to secure the conversion of an obstinate Russian state? Maybe. But I'm not sure I'd like their odds if i were them.

On an interesting sidenote, assuming a Mongol Conquest or a close analogy, what are the chances they would convert to the Russian pagan faith as the local prestige religion? (Because, in this case, you might see the northern Mongols evolve into a unified Russian state over time).

The chance depends on how much Russian land they directly rule. If it is anything they rule like OTL borders then there is a little chance they would convert and will likely become Muslims. Odds are the Polish and the Tatars may eventually take Rus territory and slowly Christianize and Islamize the population regardless.
 
Honestly, this topic comes up often enough (either the Slavs or more commonly the Norse) and discussion is usually stifled by a severe case of Christian Determinism.

"Pagan faiths will always fall to Abrahamic ones because religion!"

"But what if the Pagan faith tried to organise?"

"It can't because it was tribal and not written down!"

"Let's suppose it did."

"Enemies on all sides! It will convert eventually!"
 
Honestly, this topic comes up often enough (either the Slavs or more commonly the Norse) and discussion is usually stifled by a severe case of Christian Determinism.

"Pagan faiths will always fall to Abrahamic ones because religion!"

"But what if the Pagan faith tried to organise?"

"It can't because it was tribal and not written down!"

"Let's suppose it did."

"Enemies on all sides! It will convert eventually!"

You really think the Pope would give up? I think not.
 
You really think the Pope would give up? I think not.

Not necessarily, but "not giving up" is not the same as "wins in the end".

To be honest I just think it's the fact that this board likely has so many Christian members, or members who come from Christian backgrounds, that they simply cannot conceive of a world where their faith actually fails. If you're raised to believe that the spread of Christianity or Islam or whatever else into every corner of the world was "God's Will" then perhaps you would think it was pre-determined by some greater spiritual power, but in reality the spread of the Abrahamic religions was as much politics and power as anything else.

Pagan Rus has the potential to be huge. Yes, there are other factors to contend with (horselords from the east, for one), but I don't think it's fair to discount the topic of continued Pagan rule based on the flimsy assumption that all of the western world was destined to be Christian.

Forgive me if I seem especially butthurt by this, but recently I've started noticing patterns in the way things are discussed on the board and it's becoming rather frustrating.
 
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