WI: Second Polish Republic Gets their Naval Wish list?

[Kalga]

(the number being vague since you don't give hard numbers for what the Poles get from the Germans)

Conway didn't really go into much detail on that, probably the actual demands weren't all that concrete and/or lost to history...

And does anyone think that Poland could use the ships they gain from Germany during the Polish-Soviet war?

Unlikely, if only because almost everything was decided on land and that the Soviets at the time didn't have a navy of any note that they could use at the time.

 

[fasquardon]

Unlikely, if only because almost everything was decided on land and that the Soviets at the time didn't have a navy of any note that they could use at the time.

A shame... I was daydreaming about the sorts of stories one could tell of the Poles using their new navy in the war with the Soviets .

fasquardon

 

[Kalga]

Also of note is that even in OTL the Russian Civil War has not been kind on the ships of the former Russian Navy...

After two revolutions and a civil war the Russian Navy had practically ceased to exist. The Soviets had been left without a single vessel in the Black Sea, the Arctic or the Far East; only in the Baltic did an embryonic fleet survive, albeit in a wretched condition and without serious military potential.

So assuming the Polish got their pound of flesh (or I guess in this case the tonnage of their wishlist) said ships would be most likely is terrible condition, and the battleships would take a long time to be in a shape that could be useful (especially as budgets dried up in the mid to late 20s)...


*the following will heavily reference Conway's all the World's Fighting Ships 1922-1946 's data on the Soviet Navy in 1922 as well as some parts of the previous volume (1906-1921)*

Meanwhile the Soviet fleet is literally left with trash (as if OTL wasn't bad enough), like to the point where they probably will have to keep the 2 Imperator Pavel I predreadnoughts around far longer than OTL. Destroyer strength will be around 17 (on paper) and probably around a dozen (in actuality).

In OTL they managed to complete 3 of the Svetlana class (though only 1 as an actual cruiser) and 2 of the Admiral Nakhimov class. In this case the 3 incomplete hulls of the two classes that were never finished OTL might be taken in and actually finished, though given the state of Soviet industries it might take around the early 1930s for them to finished them.

A shame... I was daydreaming about the sorts of stories one could tell of the Poles using their new navy in the war with the Soviets .

fasquardon

Speaking of actual naval fighting during the Polish-Soviet War...

The Polish river flotillas, created in 191 on the Vistula and Pina rivers were at that time the only units of the Polish Navy with any military value. They proved themselves during the Polish-Soviet War of late 1919-20 (the only war lost by the USSR), when they fought gallantly and victoriously against an overwhelming enemy.

-----------------------------

I think someone also mentioned that the interwar period Poland was at times delusional concerning naval matters, yes, yes they were:

Meanwhile, the fleet expansion programmees were drawn up. The 1920 programme called for a fantastic 2 battleships, 6 cruisers, 28 destroyers, 45 submarines, 28 minesweepers and auxiliaries. Four large and twenty small monitors had to be built on Poland's rivers together with 49 motor boats. This programme had to be completed by 1929. This date was totally unrealistic, due to Poland's economic situation, ...

... though talks were underway with the British Admiralty for transferring 1 cruiser, 4 destroyers, 2 floating workshops and some CMBs to Poland.

(I really should have seen this part earlier, sorry @fasquardon )

Not gonna lie, this Poles sure can dream big when they want to. Also I could see the UK giving away some old ships in the post war era (they did scrap so many in OTL 1919-21) if Poland was seemly more stable & prosperous.

So revised max Polish fantasy fleet (only immediate aquisitions):
2 battleships
1 cruiser (unknown, but probably light in all likelihood)
4 light cruisers
16 destroyers
5 submarines
10 minesweepers
6 torpedo boats
various motor boats, submarine chasers, transports, floating workshops and other auxiliaries

... in the 1920s, which is comparable to the German Navy and larger than the Soviet Baltic fleet (especially with the latter kneecapped even more than OTL).

 

[fasquardon]

Not gonna lie, this Poles sure can dream big when they want to. Also I could see the UK giving away some old ships in the post war era (they did scrap so many in OTL 1919-21) if Poland was seemly more stable & prosperous.

In OTL, there'd be no way the British would give the Poles so much naval power (the British FO in the 20s viewed Poland as an annoying flash in the pan in an area that should be under German or Russian domination, and saw Polish ambition as them being a revanchist wanna-be great power that was acting as the handmaid to an over-powerful France - in short, Poland was a threat to the peace and stability of the continent). If the PoD itself is that either the UK or the US decides to actively push to make Poland a great power (perhaps seeing it as filling the hole left by Austria-Hungary), then maybe the British selling these ships to Poland would make sense.

Meanwhile, the fleet expansion programmees were drawn up. The 1920 programme called for a fantastic 2 battleships, 6 cruisers, 28 destroyers, 45 submarines, 28 minesweepers and auxiliaries. Four large and twenty small monitors had to be built on Poland's rivers together with 49 motor boats. This programme had to be completed by 1929. This date was totally unrealistic, due to Poland's economic situation, ...

Bloomin' 'eck. That really is dreaming big, considering where they were starting from in OTL.

If they got everything on their wishlist from Germany, Russia and the UK, that actually puts them extremely close to their dream fleet. The only thing they'd be lacking in any numbers would be submarines. So we'd get a fleet of re-built German, Russian and British surface ships and a large number of fairly modern Polish designed subs?

I would note that this large fleet isn't necessarily too large for the Polish economy in the 20s and 30s. Had Poland been more stable politically, I think they have a shot of rising to the bottom rung of great powers (so an economy comparable to Italy or Japan). So aiming for all those ships by 1929 may be ambitious, but aiming for a fleet that size by the mid 30s is doable though very dependent on decisions made outside the naval department.

Considering that both Italy and Japan (being more maritime) supported much larger fleets, this fleet isn't oversized compared to Poland's interests (though I do question if Poland has any need for battleships), since as long as relations with Germany are poor, Poland is very dependant on trade running through the Baltic sea and into the North Sea.

fasquardon

 

[Kalga]

Well, a larger navy (and healthier economy, better political stability, and more support from the great powers that would make a larger navy possible to begin with) might actually see Poland having an actual chance of forming the Intermarium in some fashion...

It could be the beginnings of a Poland Stronk timeline...

 

[fasquardon]

Well, a larger navy (and healthier economy, better political stability, and more support from the great powers that would make a larger navy possible to begin with) might actually see Poland having an actual chance of forming the Intermarium in some fashion...

It could be the beginnings of a Poland Stronk timeline...

Yeah, don't get me wrong, Poland had an extremely challenging position and most roads after ww1 do not lead to strong Polands. However, I do think Poland had much better chances than are generally appreciated.

Sending different people to Versailles (Dmowski, for example, really rubbed the Brits and the Americans the wrong way, even as he got on alright with the French), can change things. As can different policies on the ground.

The friction between Dmowski and Pilsudski didn't help either - each had a pretty strong handle on their end of forging Polish independence, but both were working to build very different Polands. Personally, I favour Pilsudski's vision more, but even if Dmowski had succeeded in imposing his vision of a smaller, more right wing, more homogeneous Poland on Pilsudski, I think it would have made things easier on the Poles between the wars.

fasquardon

 

[Kalga]

Yeah, don't get me wrong, Poland had an extremely challenging position and most roads after ww1 do not lead to strong Polands. However, I do think Poland had much better chances than are generally appreciated.

Sending different people to Versailles (Dmowski, for example, really rubbed the Brits and the Americans the wrong way, even as he got on alright with the French), can change things. As can different policies on the ground.

The friction between Dmowski and Pilsudski didn't help either - each had a pretty strong handle on their end of forging Polish independence, but both were working to build very different Polands. Personally, I favour Pilsudski's vision more, but even if Dmowski had succeeded in imposing his vision of a smaller, more right wing, more homogeneous Poland on Pilsudski, I think it would have made things easier on the Poles between the wars.

fasquardon

Dude, you should totally write a timeline based on this fantasy fleet premise, you seem to actually well versed in interwar period Poland.

 

[fasquardon]

Dude, you should totally write a timeline based on this fantasy fleet premise, you seem to actually well versed in interwar period Poland.

I was, at one point researching an interwar Poland TL. I may write it eventually, but it isn't a high priority.

As to specifically doing a TL written about a Polish fleet - I don't know nearly enough about naval matters yet. A story about an improbably powerful Polish navy could be very interesting though...

fasquardon

 

[Kalga]

I was, at one point researching an interwar Poland TL. I may write it eventually, but it isn't a high priority.

As to specifically doing a TL written about a Polish fleet - I don't know nearly enough about naval matters yet. A story about an improbably powerful Polish navy could be very interesting though...

fasquardon

I have all 4 volumes of Conway's all the World's Fighting Ships (1860-1905, 1906-1921, 1922-1946, and the combined 1947-1995 volume) so I can provide quotes on particular ships and nations' naval history if needed...

 

[fasquardon]

I have all 4 volumes of Conway's all the World's Fighting Ships (1860-1905, 1906-1921, 1922-1946, and the combined 1947-1995 volume) so I can provide quotes on particular ships and nations' naval history if needed...

Well, the first big question is how well can the Poles afford to maintain the ships and what facilities would they need to maintain them? Especially considering that some of the ships they'd get from the Soviets would be in need of serious repair or need their construction completed.

The PoD I was planning for my Polish TL is that Roman Dmowski is found floating dead in the Seine on May 17 1918 instead of Bronisław Piłsudski (probably Bronisław committed suicide in OTL, but the death is a bit of a mystery, here one mysterious death is swapped with another). Bronisław Piłsudski was an anthropologist and brother to Jósef Piłsudski. As his younger brother becomes more important in the struggle for independence going on in Poland, Bronisław is roped into the Polish delegation to the Versailles conference. This exchange of the two men has 3 effects: 1) the delegates to Versailles can talk to Jósef's brother and be reassured that the Poles aren't being led by a flaming socialist, 2) Dmowski being dead means that he isn't writing letters back to Poland telling the NDs to resist the temptation to work with Jósef Piłsudski, resulting in a more united and decisive Polish leadership back home in Poland, 3) Dmowski isn't bad-mouthing Piłsudski at the Versailles conference and isn't aggravating the Brits and the Americans, meaning everyone has a more favourable view of Poland.

(Note that without Dmowski, Paderewski would be the leader of the Polish delegation to Versailles - Bronisław Piłsudski would not be playing a leading role.)

Now, in my TL I wasn't going to have the substitution of Roman with Bronisław radically change the position of the other delegates at Versailles. It was just going to mean that a few close run decisions by the politicians in Poland and the delegates at Versailles took a slightly more favourable path. To end up with our naval Poland, I think we need to assume that the British or the Americans have a change of heart from their OTL wariness about Poland.

Given the interest Britain had in naval matters, we probably want to make it so Britain is the one who adopts a pro-Polish stance in this TL.

So... With a pro-Polish Britain, Poland gets more ships off Germany, probably gets the OTL plebiscite areas in Germany just given to her (the decision to make the Polish claims on Germany plebiscite regions was fairly close run in OTL), Danzig is a Polish port, not an international city. That, combined with the Polish right-wing being more cooperative with Piłsudski means a richer Poland that is more secure in the west and probably less prone to producing stories of atrocities (the Poles weren't actually worse behaved than average in the wars in the east, but they weren't angels and the times they misbehaved did impact how Poland was perceived in the West). So we don't need any extra PoDs to result in Poland doing better in the Polish-Soviet war.

So at the end we have a Poland that has had the stuffing pummelled out of it, but is still much stronger, larger, more secure and more left-wing than OTL's Poland. The bits that matter most in the 1920s are the plebiscite areas Poland gained off Germany and Danzig - so are those enough that Poland can make the hulls it has gained off the Germans and Russians and turn them into a real navy? Not knowing the manpower and facility needs of the ships involved, it's not a question I can answer, so at this point I have to hand over to others.

And even assuming Britain remains friendly after the Polish-Soviet war ends, does Poland have the spare cash to buy some ships off them? Poland basically needs to rebuild itself at this same time, even if we assume that the Soviets don't overrun much of the core Polish areas in TTL's Polish-Soviet war, there's still an enormous amount of damage to be repaired from being a major battlefield in WW1.

And does anyone think that Poland might be able to get some Austro-Hungarian ships? Most would be unsuitable for the Baltic, but even ones designed for southern climes would be be in better condition than the ships they'd get from the Soviets.

fasquardon

 

[ElMarquis]

ElMarquis' What If Poland Acquires (they get a loan or something - nobody wanted Bolsheviks in Europe):

Mackensen-class battlecruisers Mackensen and Graf Spee, (awarded for war damages but of ~9,000,000 Marks value) and has them completed.
Hawkins-class cruisers Hawkins, Raleigh, Frobisher, Effingham and Cavendish (acquired at lowered prices because the Admiralty didn't particularly want them).
20 Admiralty modified W-class destroyers (also acquired at lower prices as they'd been laid down but were soon to be on the peace dividends chopping block).
12 R-class small attack submarines.

 

[Toraach]

Well, I don't see any reasons for this gigantomachia. Even in the OTL polish navy was too big and expensive, when cheaper and more important things were negleted, example wireless comunication for the military, and of course the most grave issue. Anti-motorization policy of the whole state. Example taxes which disfavoured owning of cars, and lack of road counstruction/improvement programms.


I have some issue with a pool here. There is no expresion in Polish like "Ko Kurwa". There is "No Kurwa" which means "yeah kurwa", and "O kurwa", which means "Oh Kurwa!" and of course each of them have thousand other meanings, which are only known for Poles.

 

[fasquardon]

(they get a loan or something - nobody wanted Bolsheviks in Europe)

Problem is, none of the powers at Versailles thought the Bolsheviks were a real threat until too late. They were, at the start, more concerned about the threat Poland posed to Russia than the threat Russia posed to anyone else.

Anti-motorization policy of the whole state. Example taxes which disfavoured owning of cars, and lack of road counstruction/improvement programms.

I 100% agree about the importance of investing in radio (and it being more useful than an impressive looking fleet).

As to motorization... I didn't know Poland had an anti-motorization policy. There were Polish car and truck companies and there were Polish tank producers. Indeed, I would have said Poland was unusually motorized for its level of industrialization. How did they have an anti-motorization policy and how do you think it held them back?

Though I do think Poland was at a stage of development where investment into railroads still offered far greater return, so I am not sure that investing in things besides roads and cars was a bad thing.

fasquardon

 

[Toraach]

I 100% agree about the importance of investing in radio (and it being more useful than an impressive looking fleet).

As to motorization... I didn't know Poland had an anti-motorization policy. There were Polish car and truck companies and there were Polish tank producers. Indeed, I would have said Poland was unusually motorized for its level of industrialization. How did they have an anti-motorization policy and how do you think it held them back?

Though I do think Poland was at a stage of development where investment into railroads still offered far greater return, so I am not sure that investing in things besides roads and cars was a bad thing.

fasquardon

I'm not an expert from the Second Republic, but I know about two things.

1. A lack of funding into the road infrastructure. Until the middle of the People's Republic a situation with roads, especially not main ones was horrible.
2. Taxation. There was a badly conviced automobile tax, which caused that many people who in an other situation migh have bough a car didn't do it. Also this tax had that funny clause, that many people registried their cars for less than a half of the year, to avoid this tax.
3. Only a few companies in automotive industry. Mostly expensive cars. A lack of some cheap car, which might be appealing to wider spheres of society, than elites (of course there won't be anything like Ford T, because most population was very very poor, but something for at least higherupper class). Later, the biggest companies where stateowned, so all difficulties associated with this form of owning. Example instead of producing CWS, they bough a license for some italian car. CWS was a good car and groomed for polish low technical culture and poor road condition. Tanks were also produced in this state owned comapny called PZInż.

I mean that it was "perpetum mobile" lack of cars, so lack of infrastructure, so people weren't willing to buy cars, which were few, expensive, and no good roads for them, and instrastructure like gas stations, so only few cars might be sold, so they needed to be expensive, so people didn't buy them, so noone invested in infrastructure, and so on so on.

 

[Kalga]

Well, the first big question is how well can the Poles afford to maintain the ships and what facilities would they need to maintain them? Especially considering that some of the ships they'd get from the Soviets would be in need of serious repair or need their construction completed.

There's Gdynia, which from a simple reading does imply it could handle some major units

The considerable investments made by the Polish Government in Gdynia and the gradual stabilisation of Poland's economy brought about the possibility of additional military expenditure, and in 1924...

... A naval base would be built at Gdynia to house and supply the Polish ships as well as those of the French Navy which, according to the 1921 alliance, could be expected in case of war with Russia. ...

... but by mid-1925 the Polish currency was in serious trouble and all but the minelaying submarines fell victim to budget cuts.

... but that's gonna take a while to develop that port, which from what wikipedia said took until like the 1930s to mature.

Money for maintenance will be very limited, they might not have a choice but to let the battleships further rust for a few years due to lack of funds.

Edit: misc info:

Personnel in 1919 were reported to number 1500 officers and sailors from former Imperial Austrian-Hungarian and Russian Navies.

I have some issue with a poll here. There is no expresion in Polish like "Ko Kurwa". There is "No Kurwa" which means "yeah kurwa", and "O kurwa", which means "Oh Kurwa!" and of course each of them have thousand other meanings, which are only known for Poles.

The option in the poll is more of a reference to polandball than anything else, because I like polandball and I see it a lot in the fandom.

 

[fasquardon]

Edit: misc info:
Personnel in 1919 were reported to number 1500 officers and sailors from former Imperial Austrian-Hungarian and Russian Navies.

Hm... 1500 officers and men would be enough to crew a good number of ships during the Polish-Soviet war...

Daring raids on Leningrad would be pretty fun, but I'm not sure if the ships from Germany would be enough to push through the defences around the city. Does anyone know how well maintained the sea fortresses on the Gulf of Finland were at this time?

Post war, they'd need alot more sailors to crew all these ships they're supposed to get from Russia. The Svetlana class light cruisers took a crew of 630. If the German light cruisers take a similar complement, they'll need to train a lot of men to crew even their cruisers, let alone the 2 Ganguts and their 1,149 complement... Though I suspect training enough men would be less of a bottleneck than repairing the ships they get from the Soviets from their years of neglect.

fasquardon

 

[Kalga]

Hm... 1500 officers and men would be enough to crew a good number of ships during the Polish-Soviet war...

Daring raids on Leningrad would be pretty fun, but I'm not sure if the ships from Germany would be enough to push through the defences around the city. Does anyone know how well maintained the sea fortresses on the Gulf of Finland were at this time?

Post war, they'd need alot more sailors to crew all these ships they're supposed to get from Russia. The Svetlana class light cruisers took a crew of 630. If the German light cruisers take a similar complement, they'll need to train a lot of men to crew even their cruisers, let alone the 2 Ganguts and their 1,149 complement... Though I suspect training enough men would be less of a bottleneck than repairing the ships they get from the Soviets from their years of neglect.

fasquardon

I'm sure even in OTL they expended in terms of personnel during the interwar period, though I have no idea how many.

My guess would be that for the most of the 1920s the entire fleet of active ships (so all of two and a half of them, especially if they decided to be boneheaded and have one of the larger units active) would be effectively be used for training, if only to integrate all the various different ethnic groups and all the personnel from various other countries they served previously as well as churning out large batches of new personnel.

Perhaps they might go with most of the ships in mothball/reserve in peacetime as well as most of the personnel in reserve, with a conscription for the navy of having people serving for 1 year or so and then put in reserve or something.

 

[fasquardon]

Perhaps they might go with most of the ships in mothball/reserve in peacetime as well as most of the personnel in reserve, with a conscription for the navy of having people serving for 1 year or so and then put in reserve or something.

I suspect naval conscription would be a poor way to man the navy.

More likely, the Poles will just accept that the real navy will be much smaller than the force on paper, and training up enough men and repairing/refitting the ships will take until at least the mid 20s. Possibly, the whole navy won't be "active" until the 1930s.

fasquardon

 

[Kalga]

Possibly, the whole navy won't be "active" until the 1930s.

fasquardon

That's what I'm trying to imply, though what I was suggesting was more of a quick cycle through of training and active personnel so there's a large pool of non active personnel.

 

[Deleted member 9338]

This is fun to read as I do not know were the crews will come from or were to dock them.