WI Scots lose the battle of Stirling Bridge?

At 11 September 1297 Scottish army under Andrew Moray and William Wallace met with the larger English army under the Earl of Surrey and Hugh de Cressingham at Stirling Bridge...
When the vanguard, comprising 5,400 English and Welsh infantry and several hundred cavalry had crossed the Bridge, the attack was ordered. The Scots spearmen came down from the high ground in rapid advance towards Stirling Bridge, quickly seizing control of the English bridgehead. Surrey's vanguard was now cut off from the rest of the army. The heavy cavalry to the north of the river was trapped and cut to pieces, their comrades to the south powerless to help. Surrey, who was a valuable warrior and still had a formidable contingent of archers, had remained to the south of the river and was still in a strong position. The bulk of his army still remained intact and he could have held the line of the Forth, denying the triumphant Scots a passage to the south. But his confidence was gone. After Tweng's escape he ordered the bridge's destruction and retreated towards Berwick.
WI Surrey hadnt lost his nerve and counter-attacked the Scots? He was still able to claim victory (or at least a stalemate)
How is changing History an English victory at Stirling? Any thoughts?
 
to achieve English victory, remove Hugh de Cressingham. He was a treasury official attached to the expedition lead by surrey. He had this unfortunate habit of trying to hurry Surrey because of the costs the war was generating on the King's purse. Partly because of him, SUrrey chose to ford the river Stirling in full view of the enemy (not certain whether they knew, but tey should have assumed so) across a bridge only wide enough to allow two men to cross abreast at a time when there was a ford wide enough for thirty men to cross abrest less then a mile away.
 
Actually Surrey still had reserves and many archers... Had he ordered them to counter-attack Wallace's Scots he could have turned the tide in his favour... But he lost his nerve on the most crucial moment... If Surrey had the nerve to counter-attack Scots wouldnt have a chance... Moray was already slain and Wallace was busy repulsing the cavalry...
 
It depends if you want both Wallace AND Moray to die in battle or Wallace to escape.

English victory might well convince Longshanks not to take personal command of the Scotland campaign and Surrey could be empowered to again buy off the Scottish nobles. Wallace wouldn't go on any raids in northern England although he might take up a guerilla-type campaign if he survives. More importantly, Robert the Bruce was nominally loyal to Edward until the Scottish victory which would probably butterfly away into continued fielty.

I doubt whether Edward has the ability to formally annex Scotland to England so he will consider some sort of personal union between his son and some suitable Scottish woman.
 

bard32

Banned
At 11 September 1297 Scottish army under Andrew Moray and William Wallace met with the larger English army under the Earl of Surrey and Hugh de Cressingham at Stirling Bridge...
When the vanguard, comprising 5,400 English and Welsh infantry and several hundred cavalry had crossed the Bridge, the attack was ordered. The Scots spearmen came down from the high ground in rapid advance towards Stirling Bridge, quickly seizing control of the English bridgehead. Surrey's vanguard was now cut off from the rest of the army. The heavy cavalry to the north of the river was trapped and cut to pieces, their comrades to the south powerless to help. Surrey, who was a valuable warrior and still had a formidable contingent of archers, had remained to the south of the river and was still in a strong position. The bulk of his army still remained intact and he could have held the line of the Forth, denying the triumphant Scots a passage to the south. But his confidence was gone. After Tweng's escape he ordered the bridge's destruction and retreated towards Berwick.
WI Surrey hadnt lost his nerve and counter-attacked the Scots? He was still able to claim victory (or at least a stalemate)
How is changing History an English victory at Stirling? Any thoughts?
Again, not my forte. However, I'll give it a try. The original Stirling Bridge,
was a Roman bridge. I heard this on the History Channel. The English could have sent in the heavy cavalry and exploited the opening made by the light
cavalry. Am I right? I also have confession to make. I'm not a military historian either.
 
its a good point... But the crucial mistake is that Surrey lost his courage when he HAD to counter-attack... His archers and the bulk of his army (including his reserves) were intact... A well organised infantry attack and continuous missile fire would have repelled the Scottish attack... Victory for English would be a long shot but it could be achieved... A stalemate is more propable...
 
I won't discuss how the battle could have been won, though I think that Atreus' PoD could be a good one for a timeline.

Where is the border in 1297?
It was fairly fluid, especially in the East, and could well move a bit further North. The infallible wiki' states that Longshank sacked it the previous year, but whether that means it is now English, I don't know.

Casualties would be important. If Wallace dies (as well as Moray in OTL) then the rebels' - for want of a better word - will be rather disadvantaged.

Also, a victory for the English will keep wavering Scots nobles in the English camp.

It really all depends upon what happens next. Surrey (presuming he survives) can fall back, hold the line of the Forth or move on Northward.

There is no sense in falling back, so he'll likely do 2 or 3.

If the lands South of the Forth can all be held for a (long) while, they may become 'English'. This will be easier in Lothian towards Edinburgh than it will in the West - the Galloway hills may be more problematic.

The alternative is to set up a puppet Scotland south of the forth, consolidating this before moving on.

What would happen if Surrey decided to go North, it could work very well, or they could end up in even bigger trouble.
 
Well the turning point here is Surrey loosing nerves... Even if Moray and Wallace were slain he' d still flee since he witnessed his cavalry being defeated and Cressingham losing his head...
 
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