WI Schlieffen more according to plan

To add to all the interesting WWI stuff: what would have happened if the Russians didn't invade East Prussia in august 1914. Would that have made a difference for the war in the Western front, and would Germany still want to attack Russia after 6 weeks?
 
To add to all the interesting WWI stuff: what would have happened if the Russians didn't invade East Prussia in august 1914. Would that have made a difference for the war in the Western front, and would Germany still want to attack Russia after 6 weeks?


The Orriginal Von Schlieffen Plan included a march throught the southern tip of the Netherlands as well. In the OTL this was eventually bented through Belgium as well, to prevent the Netherlands becomming an enemy for Germany. A neutral neighbour was prefered for trade and so on.
 
The Orriginal Von Schlieffen Plan included a march throught the southern tip of the Netherlands as well. In the OTL this was eventually bented through Belgium as well, to prevent the Netherlands becomming an enemy for Germany. A neutral neighbour was prefered for trade and so on.

But the Germans already had gone through Belgium by then. So that would make no difference.

Would they attack Russia?
 
What, has the Dutch army disintegrated or something?

How? They didn't even attack OTL, where the Netherland wasn't an enemy.

No no no no no!! I never mentioned the Netherlands or the Dutch army. You misunderstand me.

I am just asking the question: would Germany invade Russia after 6 weeks war in Belgium if the Russians did not invade East Prussia themselves first.
 
No no no no no!! I never mentioned the Netherlands or the Dutch army. You misunderstand me.

I am just asking the question: would Germany invade Russia after 6 weeks war in Belgium if the Russians did not invade East Prussia themselves first.

If the Plan succeeds and they take Paris at the start of September (very iffy but just this side of possible, I'd say), then yes, of course they'll invade Russia - they're still at war, after all.
 
There was no Schlieffen Plan, it originally was an theoretical excercise created by Schlieffen to justify the expansion of the Imperial Army. It becomes a fixture in military history by about mid-war as an answer, to their own people, to why the German's hadn't done as well as they thought they would. It was also a means to disgrace Moltke the Younger who really developed the plan.
 
If the Plan succeeds and they take Paris at the start of September (very iffy but just this side of possible, I'd say), then yes, of course they'll invade Russia - they're still at war, after all.

Russia, however, would certainly ask for a peace as soon as possible: consider Stuermer in 1916, when Russia's position was in some ways rather better (sure, it was disntegrating, but nobody knew quite to what extent). The Germans might well make some demands, but the Russians would hardly be in a position to refuse them, anyway.
 
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There were a few troop movements from west to east in the early days of WW1; 6 or 8 ersatz division very early on and another corps or two after Von Pritwitz took his beating at Gumbinnen. While I doubt it is possible for the German armies to foot march around Paris at a speed fast enough to make counter-strokes fail these 10 or so divisions would have been very useful.

Something which I have mused on is the assembly areas and marching routes of 1st and 2nd armies, it really seems to shaft the marching soldiers of 1st army and coddle the 2nd. The 1st assembled opposite the Maastricht appendix, marched south to trasit the Liege defile and north again to take it's place on the outside of the left wing. In contrast the 2nd army assembled opposite the Liege defile, marched straight through it and then marched on the inside of 1st army. I think that by the time they reached Paris 1st army would have marched tens of miles more than 2nd army in the same timeframe. I wonder how the plan would have played out in the Paris area if the marching distances of these armies was balanced out by giving the 1st army with the longest march a closer approach to the Liege defile.
 
Russia, however, would certainly ask for a peace as soon as possible: cosnider Stuermer in 1916, when RUssia's position was in some ways rather party (sure, it was disntegrating, but nobody knew quite how much). The Germans might well make some demands, but the Russians would hardly be in a position to refuse them, anyway.

Well, OK, granted, but if the Russians don't sue by spring the Germans will invade.

There was no Schlieffen Plan, it originally was an theoretical excercise created by Schlieffen to justify the expansion of the Imperial Army. It becomes a fixture in military history by about mid-war as an answer, to their own people, to why the German's hadn't done as well as they thought they would. It was also a means to disgrace Moltke the Younger who really developed the plan.

...Er... so the plan never existed and was written by Moltke anyways? :confused:

If you have some information on where the German Army went in August 1914, since it apparently wasn't a sweeping right hook through Belgium to bypass the French fortifications in Lorraine and envelop Paris and the French Army, I'd be eager to hear it.
 
It wasn't a plan in the sense that it allocated particular routes and targets to particular units and all that other staffwork that makes a plan a plan. Indeed it included some 300,000 men that the 1906 Army didn't have, Schlieffen put them in because he assumed that they would be available when needed. In the event between 1906 and 1914 the Army was only increased by 135,000, that alone makes Schlieffens idea redundant and Moltke's economies such as avoiding the Netherlands needful rather than stupidity. It is easy to criticise Moltke for 'ignoring' Schlieffens 'plan' but Moltke made a pie in the sky idea (which ignored such inconvenient realities like supply and a lack of troop numbers) into an actual plan that when executed by the forces of the day got to within 13 miles of Paris.

If Moltke is to blame it is during the execution of the offensive he authorised troops to go east despite there being little chance they'd arrive in time for the battles, and authorising the offensive on the right wing instead of switching whatever forces he could to the left.
 
I can't tell my right from my left which is why I wear a watch, I wasn't wearing my watch when I typed that.
 
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