WI: Saunders-Roe Gets The Fighter Contract

kernals12

Banned
I'm sure this is a well worn AH Cliche: what would've happened if Saunders-Roe's rocket powered SR-177 beat out the Lockheed F-104 Starfighter for the NATO fighter contract? Maybe Lockheed is not willing to pay bribes, or SR is willing to offer larger ones. IOTL, even after winning this extremely lucrative contract, Lockheed nearly went bankrupt due to the cost overruns on their Tristar airliner and was only saved by a Government bailout. But there is certain to be a limit to Congress' generosity, and if they are that deep in the red, they are probably going bust.

On the other hand, Saunders Roe would now have a foothold, and a successful jumping off point to further expansion into military and maybe even civil aviation.
 
I'm sure this is a well worn AH Cliche: what would've happened if Saunders-Roe's rocket powered SR-177 beat out the Lockheed F-104 Starfighter for the NATO fighter contract? Maybe Lockheed is not willing to pay bribes, or SR is willing to offer larger ones. IOTL, even after winning this extremely lucrative contract, Lockheed nearly went bankrupt due to the cost overruns on their Tristar airliner and was only saved by a Government bailout. But there is certain to be a limit to Congress' generosity, and if they are that deep in the red, they are probably going bust.

On the other hand, Saunders Roe would now have a foothold, and a successful jumping off point to further expansion into military and maybe even civil aviation.
As I pointed out in another thread, the F-104 was flying in number in 1957, while the SR-177 was still on paper. The prototype it was based on, the SR-53, had two built, and one crashed.
It's successor also had enough fuel for 7 minutes at top speed. It had a small radar, not much room for a dish in there, I've seen 18"

The -177 would have had a slightly larger turbojet for a little higher speed when off the rocket, but similar endurance. It was a point defense interceptor with either 2 or four missiles.

There's not much market for that, as the E-E Lightning was just as fast, had longer range(but still really short) and was already set for production as of 1954
 
There was a West German market for it as they were right next door to the problem and needed fast responses.
 

kernals12

Banned
As I pointed out in another thread, the F-104 was flying in number in 1957, while the SR-177 was still on paper. The prototype it was based on, the SR-53, had two built, and one crashed.
It's successor also had enough fuel for 7 minutes at top speed. It had a small radar, not much room for a dish in there, I've seen 18"

The -177 would have had a slightly larger turbojet for a little higher speed when off the rocket, but similar endurance. It was a point defense interceptor with either 2 or four missiles.

There's not much market for that, as the E-E Lightning was just as fast, had longer range(but still really short) and was already set for production as of 1954
There was the Convair F-106. Remember, at the time, Surface-to-air missiles hadn't been perfected yet.
 

Zen9

Banned
So there are some good points and some bad here.

Firstly good
P.177 was potentially capable of operations from something like a Colossus sized CV.
The rocket was throttle-able between 100 to 10%. 7 minutes endurance is at 100%.

The rocket tanks could be swapped out for jet fuel tanks and give it a reasonable endurance.
Jet only flight, with reheat could make mach 1.4+.

Chief downside is that Saro had to use DH/Airspeed facilities at Christchurch. As they had no airfield on the Isle of Wight.

Radar dish was 18" Diameter and would need changes to get it to 24" or above.

Gyron Junior was too thirsty in real life. But Avon was possible.

Wing hardpoints might limit warlord.
 
There was the Convair F-106. Remember, at the time, Surface-to-air missiles hadn't been perfected yet.
But the Six had range to cover a lot of area, so was usable as a long range interceptor, especialy since it had a long range radar set, and more importantly, tied into SAGE network, so didn't have to rely on what the local radar could 'see'

The rocket tanks could be swapped out for jet fuel tanks and give it a reasonable endurance.
Jet only flight, with reheat could make mach 1.4+.

Biggest problem I see, is that the fuselage looks pretty chunky. I'm thinking it would have run into mach drag, and would have needed an area rule fix after a prototype was actually built
 
There was a West German market for it as they were right next door to the problem and needed fast responses.

but they also wanted mult-role, something that the SR-177 couldn't handle

Will note that the F-104 wasn't a good choice for air to mud, either, but at least had hardpoints.

IMO, the fighter they should have picked was the Grumman F11F-1F Super Tiger
 

Zen9

Banned
Biggest problem I see, is that the fuselage looks pretty chunky. I'm thinking it would have run into mach drag, and would have needed an area rule fix after a prototype was actually built
Well we know they ran this in the wind tunnels, so it's not a given that they were unaware of such a drag issue.

We know a mockup was built and parts of the prototypes were under construction, when the axe fell. This suggests that they felt it didn't have any such issue.
And we know of no revised fusilage design, though there was work on an alternative wing of thinner section.

We also know that the inlet so improved things with the jet engine.

And we know they did low speed work in tunnels to assess it's TO & L speeds with blow or partial diverted thrust and even a alternative with a canard.
 

Zen9

Banned
Various multirole options existed with the P.177.
Ventral camera pack.
Drop tanks
Pylons for at least 1,000lb bombs or Bullpup missiles.
Wingtip rocket pods as an alternative to Firestreak or Red Top or Sidewinder.

They even suggested that the rocket motor could be stripped out and a APU put in it's place.
 
Various multirole options existed with the P.177.
Ventral camera pack.
Drop tanks
Pylons for at least 1,000lb bombs or Bullpup missiles.
Wingtip rocket pods as an alternative to Firestreak or Red Top or Sidewinder.

They even suggested that the rocket motor could be stripped out and a APU put in it's place.
GRC-1953-C-33449~medium.jpg

XF-102 Model in supersonic wind tunnel at the Lewis Flight Propulsion Laboratory in 1953

Drag problem wasn't determined until the prototype flew later
 
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Zen9

Banned
F.177 is '55 to '57. Area rule was known. Famously included on the P.8 Lightning variant offered to F.155T.
Tunnel testing of P.177 continued into '58.
 
The Buccaneer S1 used the Gyron junior but this was dropped for the Spey in the S2. The Spey Mk202 in the Phantom had 20,500lbs of thrust.

If the SR177 Mk2 used an afterburning Spey would it do Mach 2 without the rocket? What would it's endurance be?
 

Zen9

Banned
The Buccaneer S1 used the Gyron junior but this was dropped for the Spey in the S2. The Spey Mk202 in the Phantom had 20,500lbs of thrust.

If the SR177 Mk2 used an afterburning Spey would it do Mach 2 without the rocket? What would it's endurance be?
If they expected 2 hours with the Gyron Junior, it ought to be greater with the Spey.

Ought to make Mach 2 with Spey.
Gyron Junior
Mass flow 123lb/sec
S.f.c ?

Spey
Mass flow 204lb/sec
S.f.c 0.63
 
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Was the English Electric Lightning ever offered to the Luftwaffe? It's range isn't as much as an issue over central Europe and it had good handling qualities (much better than the F-104 a least). There were proposals for and variants with greater ground attack capability as well, would the US have been willing to integrate the B61?
 
Was the English Electric Lightning ever offered to the Luftwaffe? It's range isn't as much as an issue over central Europe and it had good handling qualities (much better than the F-104 a least). There were proposals for and variants with greater ground attack capability as well, would the US have been willing to integrate the B61?

At that point, the RAF didn't encourage multi-role aircraft, and a multi-role E.E. Lightning would cut into Hawker Hunter export sales, that the RAF was very interested in at that time
 

Zen9

Banned
Was the English Electric Lightning ever offered to the Luftwaffe? It's range isn't as much as an issue over central Europe and it had good handling qualities (much better than the F-104 a least). There were proposals for and variants with greater ground attack capability as well, would the US have been willing to integrate the B61?
I seem to recall reading that it was. But the Germans had more interest in Saro's P.177 and the Buccaneer.
 
MHO (which is not what the OP wants to hear) is that the effort put into the Avro 720, SR Princess, SR.53 and SR.177 aught to have been expended on missiles.

That way we might have had Blue Steel and Black Knight in service sooner. Furthermore, the UK might also have had a small satellite launcher in the Scout class a decade before Black Arrow was launched.

In order to win the NATO fighter contract the SR.177 has to be put into service with the RAF and/or FAA. The only place I can think of putting it in the RAF's 1960s order of battle is to develop the SR.177 into a substitute for the Hunter FGA9/FR10. However, if the RAF really wanted something better than the Hunter FGA9/FR10 I think it would be better off reviving the Hawker P.1083 or developing the Fairey Delta 2.

It's also worth pointing out that most of the Starfighters used by NATO air forces weren't built by Lockheed. Instead they were built by Canadair, Fiat, Fokker, MBB and SABCA. Furthermore, most of the Japanese Starfighters were built by Mitsubishi. If Saunders Roe had beaten Lockheed the afore mentioned firms would have built 1,789 SR.177s instead of 1,789 Starfighters.

According to my spreadsheet Lockheed built 490 Starfighters for export. If 490 British built SR.177s had been exported instead they would have been built on the mainland instead of at Saunders Roe's Isle of Wight factory. All other things being equal Bristol Helicopters, Fairey and Saro still become part of Westland so my guess is that the SR.177 would be built at Hayes, Stockport, Weston-Super-Mare or Yeovill.
 

Zen9

Banned
So several points here.
1. UK government took the wrong track on missiles.
1a it ought to have stayed in Royal Ordinance and nearly did but for a few wrong headed fools.
Hawking it around aviation firms knowing it was unlikely to make a profit was not the way forward.
1b ballistic missiles and we took the wrong path going for lox/kerosene instead of HTP/Kerosene. Even though we did for other systems....
Though really hyperglycolic gel fuel was the way forward just has it had been for flamethrower fuel.

2. The choice on these mixed power plant fighters was Avro or Saro. Of the two Saro's was miles easier to navalise.
And yes there was a joint order projected prior to cancellation. 150 RN and 150 RAF.

Licence was with Heinkel, Germany understood the technology and initially wanted it for QRA as it offered the fastest means to get up.
 
And yes there was a joint order projected prior to cancellation. 150 RN and 150 RAF.
Are you able to quote a source for that?

150 seems like too many for the RN. AFAIK only Ark Royal, Eagle and Victorious were to operate the SR.177 with a total of 32 in 3 squadrons (12 Ark Royal, 12 Eagle and 8 Victorious). 118 "backing" aircraft seems like too many for trials, training, maintenance and an attrition reserve. That is unless the Royal Navy was expecting a very high attrition rate.

AFAIK only 27 SR.177s were ordered.

"The formal contract for twenty-seven aircraft was issued on 4th September 1956, and it covered four batches of fiver, four, four and 14 aircraft, although the last 18 were for planning purposes only."

Source: Page 49 of Project Cancelled by Derek Wood.

I also know that only 9 SR.177s got as far as receiving British military serial numbers.

Wood also wrote...

"At this point De Havilland and Saunders-Roe became associated through the purchase by the former of 33⅓ percent share holding in Saunders Roe. De Havilland was responsible for both engines on the SR.53 and P.177 and the arrangement was seen to strengthen the Saunders Roe position in a highly competitive market."

"By January 1957, design of main component jigs were nearly 50 percent complete and a metal installation jig, or mock-up had been decided upon. At this stage a quantity production batch was in view which was most likely to be manufactured by a different company in order to spread work across industry and save an overload at Cowes. Armstrong-Whitworth, who had taken over basic wing design for 177, were selected as the second production outlet."
 
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