RodentRevolution
Banned
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Best,
Is it possible that one result of an unlikely British victory at Saratoga might be that TFSmith grows up to be a British Empire Exceptionalist?
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Best,
Is it possible that one result of an unlikely British victory at Saratoga might be that TFSmith grows up to be a British Empire Exceptionalist?
Is it possible that one result of an unlikely British victory at Saratoga might be that TFSmith grows up to be a British Empire Exceptionalist?
Yes, but it is not 600 miles from Brooklyn to west point by river.Even today it's 600 miles on the Interstate from New York City to Montreal.
The distances are such, and the transportation and communications were so poor in the 1770s, that you're asking for an impossibility, certainly with the forces historically at hand for the British in North America at this point.
Quebeec yes, the attack on Carillon, in 1758 (Ticonderoga) was by river from New York. It was not bad logistics made that attack faile. And Howe does not need to go to Ticonderoga. The bad communication works both ways, as the rebel commanders do not know were, or how strong the Bourgoyne is, just that he is coming from the canadas. That, for a commander that absolutely needs to keep his army more or less intact, and paired with what we do know about Washington as a general should tell us a how the campaign will go.There's a reason that when the British invaded New France in the 1760s they did it from the sea.
Best,
Yes, but it is not 600 miles from Brooklyn to west point by river.
If Bourgoyne, as in otl, is moving from Canada, we will get a "Saratoga" British victory in this scenario. In otl, a small is force of mostly loyal patriots destroyed the Hudson rivervally forts. Howes force, in otl, beat Washington at Brandywine. Howe would at least have the same amount, if not more troops for an attack up the Hudson in this ATL, the area is much more loyal than pennsylvania, and the would have better support from the navy than they did in otl.
Quebeec yes, the attack on Carillon, in 1758 (Ticonderoga) was by river from New York. It was not bad logistics made that attack faile. And Howe does not need to go to Ticonderoga. The bad communication works both ways, as the rebel commanders do not know were, or how strong the Bourgoyne is, just that he is coming from the canadas. That, for a commander that absolutely needs to keep his army more or less intact, and paired with what we do know about Washington as a general should tell us a how the campaign will go.
Think about a round trip for Burgoyne's or Howe's supply echelon.
Then think about the reality the British are still trying to coordinate three forces separated by that many miles (even farther for St. Leger) via a water route (ocean and river) many times that, and with the central, coordinating headquarters (if one can call it that) under Germain in London.
And in an era of communications at the pace of a sailing ship or messenger on horseback.
And it is all aimed at a local enemy operating on interior lines.
Good luck with that.
Best,
Today, at 10 knots, albany to new york city is about 13h, the hudson is deep enough that you could sail at least fifth rates up to West Point if not further, the reason there is a west point. Coordination is good, but not necessary. Internal line are very valuable, but not so much for messangers by boat or horse, and the Hudsonvally in 77 is among the most loyalist areas in the US.
Consider why Howe and Burgoyne failed to coordinate their offensives.
An overland offensive from Montreal south throws away the British seapower mobility advantage, and still ends up with a British army advancing into a sack against the Americans.
Howe trying to move upriver requires the British to take and hold a salient roughly 150 miles in length, along a navigable
ummh, really, last time i checked the British did mange a few field victorys during the war, off course most of the time the redcoats were utterly destroyed and routed every time they meet the rebels in a field engagm...in fact, they could actually win in the field against Gates, Arnold, Stark, Herkimer, met al ... Which, historically, they could not manage to do...
There's something about a bridge too far...
But they do not really need a highly coordinated offensive. Point of the tread is what if British victory at Saratoga. Not if it was possible, but what if it happens. Why? If they can put enough naval power on the river, why do they need to secure the hole part of it? The American strongholds feel to a small force of loyalist (not regulars) and hessian in otl, why would they be harder to take in ATL? ummh, really, last time i checked the British did mange a few field victorys during the war, off course most of the time the redcoats were utterly destroyed and routed every time they meet the rebels in a field engagm...Yes, the crown could never reconquer the rebels bye force, to much ground, too few boots, but a successful Hudson campaign?
Hey guys, I'm honoured the thread drew so much interest (my most popular what if question I've asked) and i've been reading everything, hadn't really had time to respond to everything so i apologize for that but just refrain from picking fights in the thread
And as i said before, I have figured out how i kinda want to do the story/timeline, i just don't have an idea on when it will come out due to college starting on Monday granted depending on this wicked snowstorm i may have classes cancelled *Fingers crossed*
Sigh. Yet another interesting thread ruined by TFSmith121's American Exceptionalism. Post after post of America Uber Alles (which is apparently preordained) and attacking the POD itself rather than discussing what its effects might be. Tell me TFSmith121 - is there a single scenario you acknowledge as plausible where the British do better in the American Revolutionary War?
And war, of course, is what sets the stage for politics, and one - generally - needs some sort of explanation as to why and how the military balance as it was up to a given point of departure somehow changes.
Of course, one can say "the commanders assigned historically simply do better than they did in reality," but that's something of a handwave.
If the point of the three pronged attack is to try and stretch the American forces - as it is, of course, the Americans decisively beat two of the three British forces - then, yes, they really do, as the lack of coordination between Burgoyne and St. Leger and Howe historically led to multiple failures at Oriskany and Saratoga.