WI Santa Ana doesn't sign the treaties of Velasco?

What if Santa Ana, after being captured in the aftermath of the Battle of San Jacinto, refuses to sign the Treaties of Velasco which granted Texas its independence??? What if he had said something like "Patria o muerte" (Fatherland or death), "Es mejor morir de pie que vivir de rodillas" (It's more worthy to die standing than to live on your knees) or "Hace más de 4 siglos, Guatemozín prefirío la tortura a entregar el tesoro de nuestra nación. Yo prefiero sufrir lo que me depare el destino a entregar un solo palmo de tierra de mi patria" (More than 4 centuries ago, Chactemoc prefered to be tortured instead of telling the invaders where the treasure of our nation was burried. I'd rather suffer what comes in the future than give away a single acre of my fatherland).

Note: they all sound much better in Spanish.
 
Two items on this. 1. Santa Anna only thought about Santa Anna. He could care less what was good for Mexico.

2. Even if he had done this when was Mexico going to take Texas back? They had 9 years to do so before the USA took over Texas. When they finally did go to war with the USA(right or wrong) they totally got their tails kicked in and lost half of their nation. It was just a matter of time because of American immigration into Texas before it became part of the USA. Mexico on their best day especially with Santa Anna has a leader never stood a chance.
 
Texas would have achieved de facto instead of de jure independence. To provide for their safety, Texans would have turned to the US for support and a Mexican-American War would have occurred, which while perhaps taking a bit longer, would have still ended the same way. But Santa Anna, if he didn't spend the time in captivity may have come out of the whole thing a national hero.

The best thing for Mexico both economically and politically would have been to sell Texas and all California north of the 36th latitude to the US for as much money as possible and thus avoid a costly war. Of land and silver hungry Americans would have still have poured into northern Mexico. So not to sound to chauvinistic, but they're still screwed.

Benjamin

P.S. Yes, they do sound cooler in Spanish, but "Yankee pig, go home!!" sounds better in English.
 
Two items on this. 1. Santa Anna only thought about Santa Anna. He could care less what was good for Mexico.

That's true, doing this would seem a little out of character for Saanta Anna. But people's behaviour is umpredictable. Even the most selfish persons are capable of altruistic acts occasionaly. Who knows, maybe he like's the idea of being remebered for ever, or he things that returning home poor and discredited is worst than dying.

Lety's say he refuses to sign. Would he be killed? Would he be held prisoner indefinately? Would the try to get someone else to sign a treaty (another prisoner) or would they rather negotiate with the new Mexican government?
 
Given the lack of political stability in Mexico combined with Santa Anna's own multiple cases rising to, and falling, from power this would strike me as perhaps a very dangerous stand to make.

Consider that Texas is on the verge of collapse and Sam Houston's tiny army less than one fifth of Mexico's forces are the only opposition left. Now, in a single blunder, Santa Anna has put the outcome of the war and the fate of Texas in question.

I can easily see some patriotic or ambitious(or both) Mexican commander rallying the Mexican detachments in Texas to launch a daring strike which ends all hope of an independent Texas while killing Sam Houston, itself a major point of divergence. This officer returns the hero of the nation for winning the war and saving Texas for Mexico, no doubt rising to power in the future.

It is, of course, tragic that Santa Anna did not survive the battle but the bullet wounds at extreme close range, proven by the marks of gunpowder, can only mean he was murdered by his captors rather than permit his rescue. It is truly unfortunate that neither Sam Houston nor any of his assassins survived to tell the full tale of this nefarious deed but Mexico must mourn and then move on...
 

cw1865

Santa Ana

I would suspect Sam Houston would've grabbed Santa Ana's hand and force signed it and then shot him in the head. Houston is Andrew Jackson's right hand man; Sam Houston was the type of man who got what he wanted.

Nevertheless, EVEN WITH Santa Ana's signature, Mexico did not actually ratify Velasco {If they had, Mexico would've had no claim to the Nueces prior to the Mexican War}
 
Actually Mexico probably would have been better off if they had recognized Texan Independence and the Rio Grande border(including Santa Fe), under two conditions.

1) Texas swears it won't join the United States
2) That is the extent of Texan claims on Mexico.

This would serve the purpose of giving Mexico a buffer state while allowing them to keep California perhaps indefinitely.
 
actually, if Santa Anna hadn't signed the treaty, there are two possible repercussions.
First, if he hadn't signed, SA might have been lynched right there on the spot. The Texans were immensely angry at him for the massacres at the Alamo, Goliad, and a couple other places. They kept him alive only to sign and later verify the treaty.
Second, the Texan rebels might have been squashed not long after. Houston only had about 850 men in his army. The Mexicans still had 4000 men in the field, under Urrea and Filisola (both of whom were far better generals than SA). In OTL, Filisola (the overall commander, with SA out of the way) couldn't bring himself to go against Santa Anna's signed treaty (partly because he was a European general in a Mexican army). If SA hadn't signed, he might have went on to squash the rebellion... especially if SA had been lynched.
Ironically, by all modern standards of international law, SA's signing of the treaty would be considered to be illegal, since he was a POW...
 
Nevertheless, EVEN WITH Santa Ana's signature, Mexico did not actually ratify Velasco {If they had, Mexico would've had no claim to the Nueces prior to the Mexican War}

Yes they would the province of Tejas only extended to the Nueces, Laredo and the land between the Nueces and the Rio Grande was under the administration of Tamaulipas (And was even claimed by the Rep del Rio Grande).

Actually Mexico probably would have been better off if they had recognized Texan Independence and the Rio Grande border(including Santa Fe), under two conditions.

1) Texas swears it won't join the United States
2) That is the extent of Texan claims on Mexico.

This would serve the purpose of giving Mexico a buffer state while allowing them to keep California perhaps indefinitely.

I agree that this would have probably been the smartest thing to do. Even going ahead and giving Texas the Rio Grande border. It would have given Mexico a very necessary buffer between it and the US.
However this does not mean the US would have gone ahead anyway and annex Tejas later on, and take Northern California to expand to the Pacific.

actually, if Santa Anna hadn't signed the treaty, there are two possible repercussions.
First, if he hadn't signed, SA might have been lynched right there on the spot. The Texans were immensely angry at him for the massacres at the Alamo, Goliad, and a couple other places. They kept him alive only to sign and later verify the treaty.
Second, the Texan rebels might have been squashed not long after. Houston only had about 850 men in his army. The Mexicans still had 4000 men in the field, under Urrea and Filisola (both of whom were far better generals than SA). In OTL, Filisola (the overall commander, with SA out of the way) couldn't bring himself to go against Santa Anna's signed treaty (partly because he was a European general in a Mexican army). If SA hadn't signed, he might have went on to squash the rebellion... especially if SA had been lynched.
Ironically, by all modern standards of international law, SA's signing of the treaty would be considered to be illegal, since he was a POW...

Also very interesting. If Santa Anna is lynched it would probably have been great for Mexico. However even if Urrea and Filisola act acordingly there s stil the chance that a leader like Paredes or Salas (these were Santa Anna's political seconds whom he placed in power when he left to fight) would end up in Mexico City. Paredes was the one who actually declared war on the US, after they occupied Texas.
If Urrea and Filisola crush the rebellion they might anger Jackson who would proceed to rally the US into helping Texas. Once the US is in the game Mexico has very little chance.
 

cw1865

Treaty

Yes they would the province of Tejas only extended to the Nueces, Laredo and the land between the Nueces and the Rio Grande was under the administration of Tamaulipas (And was even claimed by the Rep del Rio Grande).

But if they ratified it wouldn't have been.
 
The only thing that could have prevented Texas from being annexed by the US in a semi-permanent manner would be for the UK to send military support, which would no have happened barring a US-UK war, or the northern free states continuously blocking the annexation through legal means. By 1836 Mexico was in such a state that it could no longer defend its territory from the influx of American immigrants (ironic isn't it?) let alone the US Army.

The Texans would not have accepted a treaty that barred them from the Rio Grande boundary or forbade them from being annexed by the US.
If they had been forced to sign such a treaty after a military defeat it would have been broken as soon as the Texan Army had been reformed and rearmed.

If Santa Anna had not signed the war would would have continued. This would be bad in the short term for Texas. In the long term though Mexican victories, especially if accompanied by executions or a massacre, would have aroused US anger. Jackson would have intervened if need be and war would have occurred a decade earlier.

Benjamin
 
If Mexico had kept up the fight in 1836. Then it means that the USA gets involved in the war 9 years earlier. That means Jackson and Van Buren are in charge of the new territory. It would be a very interesting thing to see. Also Houston may be the one to become President of the USA in the 1840's instead of Polk. The fact that Mexico will loose no matter what will not change. But what happens later could be a big butterfly.
 
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